[Red]

In recent years, commenting has dropped dramatically. We just want to know your thoughts on commenting, and WHY you comment, or choose not to.

I know we push critiques a lot, and I have a feeling that people are scared to critique or don't know how to critique. Sometimes it feel weird to critique someone that you consider to be a better artist than you?

Angie made a lovely post about this if you'd like some tips or advice on it:
http://entervoid.com/index.php?topic=12204.msg218724;boardseen#new

The truth is, people work hard on their comics. When the comic is up for voting and it gets little to no attention, it's discouraging. So, even a comment as simple as "Hey, I loved this!" is awesome. Sometimes you don't have time to type out 10 paragraphs, we get that.

So, just post your thoughts on this so maybe we can clear things up on what's happening. Let me know your thoughts on commenting!!

[Angie]

I used to critique all the time, but I got super busy so it got forgotten. I'm going to try to make an effort to try to at the very least comment on a few battles a week.

[(Pi)]

yeah, i was the same and i feel bad now. from reading and commenting on every comic that came through void, now i feel lucky if i take the time to read one or two.

new item for my once a week project!

[Rose]

Honestly, my biggest reason for not critiquing is usually anxiety, which makes it hard for me to focus on anything but homework assignments and goofing off. XD

Sometimes I honestly don't know what to critique, though. I don't know how nitpicky to be, especially since I don't want to crush someone's dreams when I actually really like their work. How can I give a really good harsh critique without making people feel like their work is crap? Because I would love critiques like that, personally, and I'm sure others would, too!

[PyrasTerran]

Why not use the sandwich method, start off with something good, like, "first off I really liked your comic, I liked this aspect of your comic, etc", then go into your critique on what did not work or needs improvement, then wrap up with another "great job, etc."

Like red said, even a tiny "I like this mucho" comment works if you like it enough but haven't the time or thought to give it a full critique.

Instead of working to make the critique harsh, just make it thorough. No matter how many mistakes or areas needing improvement you point out,  you can keep it from sounding harsh with objectivity (rather than saying the perspective in a panel is awful, instead you can simply say that it does not work)

[Kozispoon]

I'll also have to blame work and time as elements that keep me from dropping off my walls of texts when it comes to battle comments, but I like to think I more than make up for it even if I'm slow. I've said before that I personally love feedback, so I do my best to give as good as I get. I only just managed to catch up! Ready to take on critique and commentary on the recent battles!

[Con]

Good comments here. On a thread which is considered to be a commenting thread on commenting, even though I had little to add, I thought I'd comment.

Hah.

But in all due seriousness, there are some cases in which I feel like everything has already been said pretty thoroughly and I don't want to beat a dead horse. Part of me wants to just comment " I read this and agree and or enjoy." Juuust so they knew I was there. Hah hah.

I also agree that not feeling like people are looking at your work is discouraging. Even negative attention is attention, so any kind of feedback helps regardless of how you mean it. Hah.

[Tofubeast]

I usually only comment if a) I feel like a battle isn't getting enough attention or b) I have time--if I don't, it's usually because someone's already covered what I've said.

I disagree with the "sandwich comment" style of critique--I've actually read that those can be harmful instead of helpful to employees/artists, as they could be confusing. (Yes, I've read business administration stuff). This doesn't mean that you have to be "mean" or a "hardass", but concise.

If you just leave a comment that's along the lines of "great!" or "cute!" then that's not helpful at all, because it feels even lazier than not commenting IMO.

[Thresher]

The amount of time it was taking me to write each crit out is exactly why I started Void on Air.

I agree with Tofu on the "compliment sandwich", as I feel it can be harmful to the critique itself and that it can also be a bit of a handhold. Obviously we're not here to destroy peoples self esteem and we shouldn't word out crits that way, but they should expect honest feedback without the hangup of 'what else did they do well so I can balance this out'.

A good way of noting how many people have read your comment is by going by page view count, if you're not sure.

[Red]

I always try to add something positive, I think I end up making a lot of sandwiches without intending to.

I would much rather someone say "great" or "cute" than say nothing at all. If you enjoyed someone's work, then for the love of god please tell them. Encouragement should go hand in hand with critique, in my opinion. Ass patting is kind of a dirty word, but, lets be honest, if someone told me that they thought I made amazing comics I'd be pretty excited to make more. You're not going to be able to give the best critique ever every single time ... If you just wanna say you like something then please do. I don't want people to think they shouldn't comment if its not a long crit.

It gets to a certain point where "most of what I thought has already been said" and you can't add anything else as far as critique goes. I run into that a lot.

Thresher, I think Void On Air is a really great way to critique. You're getting a conversation instead of a paragraph. I hope you keep doing it forever hahaha

[Pennydox]

I have been out of the house a lot lately, and internet has been really slow to load the images.

But here are the usual rules I follow when I post a critique:
-point out the good parts of the comic
-only point them out when I have something constructive to follow that
-Only critique suggestions if I have a reason why (as in I don't say 'i don't like that' with nothing to back up my opinion)
-Followed by why I didn't like something or how something could be changed, I will give a suggestion to how it could be worked out, an experiment, or some art theory that will explain my critique
-I disagree with a comment and want to explain why I think it should be something else
-I agree with a comment and want to add on to it

reasons why my critique might be short or I won't post at all:
-I don't know much about the character (or never seen it before)
-story doesn't make sense to me
-nothing constructive to say
-busy
-A lot of times I will judge/critique the comic based on the last one I read, so if there is little to no improvement I would not make a comment because I assume the artist is practicing on it and doesn't want to hear a broken record about it (as in saying 'you need to work on anatomy' over and over for every comic, as it gets quite annoying to some)
-more than one person has mentioned the same thing. It gets repetitive.
-by the time you want to critique, three other people have mentioned exactly what I was about to say.

[Crafty]

Because I'm rather shy (something I've been trying to work on) when I was new to Void, I barely commented on anything. Mostly, I didn't feel I had anything useful to say.
But I have been trying to increase my comments, and critiquing stuff too. I think I'm getting better at it, although I still don't do it nearly as often as I should.
I'm mainly just short on time I think, but I know that could easily be remedied by not wasting so much time on Tumblr and the like. It takes me over an hour writing a thoughtful critique, so I usually opt for something with a little less depth, but I guess something is better than nothing.

I don't have a problem with the sandwich technique, so long as you still get to the nitty gritty. I'd probably direct it more to newer artists though, as the seasoned artists can handle a good honest crit, but it can easily scare the new kids away (I know I was certainly taken aback at first). Then again, the fresh artists have to get used to it somehow. Toughen them up. :I

[EyeAmPhibian]

I don' do it regularly, but when I do comment, I spend a lot of time really analyzing the comic. Which I think is only fair.

I would deffinitely be much more of an avid commenter if there was more of a discussion going about the comic. Personally I find it a bit sad when lots of people comment on a battle, but the creator doesn't say thankyou, or at least ask for some further clarification on things. It seems like the perfect opportunity to get more information on ways to improve.

So sort of going against the grain here, but its a two way thing, the creators should also be ready to have a bit more discussion in the comments section of their battles.

I'm just wondering though, if someone has left feedback on your comic, and you reply back to them, in the comments section, not though messaging, is that person notified in any way that you are responding them?

[Red]

I'm just wondering though, if someone has left feedback on your comic, and you reply back to them, in the comments section, not though messaging, is that person notified in any way that you are responding them?

Nope, they would have to choose to go back to that comic and take a look in the comments section. I don't know if a system that tags people @William_Duel etc, could be implemented but that sure would be cool.

I would deffinitely be much more of an avid commenter if there was more of a discussion going about the comic. Personally I find it a bit sad when lots of people comment on a battle, but the creator doesn't say thankyou, or at least ask for some further clarification on things. It seems like the perfect opportunity to get more information on ways to improve.

I get that. I guess there's really no way to improve that situation because it depends on who's involved. Some people just don't respond :/

[Kozispoon]

Personally I find it a bit sad when lots of people comment on a battle, but the creator doesn't say thank you, or at least ask for some further clarification on things. It seems like the perfect opportunity to get more information on ways to improve.

I'd agree with this. I like to think in all my battles I wait until the last couple hours of voting to say thanks and reply to the peeps who've commented and/or asked questions. Seems only polite and shows I actually care about what people are saying.

[Minteh]

That's what I did as well, when Cornelius entered the void.  With an hour left I went back to say thank you, but I was definitely checking on a daily basis.  I didn't want to reply to comments mid-way through voting and potentially change people's opinions, because the comic should be judged on its own.

I also was looking through the "Tips for Critiquing" that Angie put up yesterday and one thing struck me as a little out of place, but I wasn't sure if I should comment there (probably not ha), but basically this point here:

-See something really wonky that's driving you crazy and you really want to fix it? Try posting some red lines! But don't overdo it so you don't make anyone dependent on them!

I can't help but remember a specific user who had very disproportionate anatomy, but who had studied a lot of the human body, and generally believed that he knew a lot about the human physical form.  This individual often did redraws of other individual's pieces to 'show corrections'.  While this user is no longer here, and never created a character on void, the thought raises concerns in my head.

I guess with things like redlines, try to understand the difference between a stylistic choice vs. anatomical issue (cartoons vs. realism for instance).  Using an anatomical reference may help as well, without having to go over someone else`s precious artwork.

</soapbox>

[Red]

I can't help but remember a specific user who had very disproportionate anatomy, but who had studied a lot of the human body, and generally believed that he knew a lot about the human physical form.  This individual often did redraws of other individual's pieces to 'show corrections'.  While this user is no longer here, and never created a character on void, the thought raises concerns in my head.

Hahahaha I know exactly who you are talking about. Yeah, not everyone should do red lines.... I will sometimes do them when I'm having a difficult time explaining what I mean with words. In the past I've done them when trying to explain perspective as well. I think they are appropriate sometimes, but if you're going to use them for anatomy sometimes it's better to just ..... not.

[Angie]

People should make smart choices over whether or not to redline. And people are free to not use them, but thank the person for trying, in the event someone does a really wonky redline.

[Puzzlething]

   Bad redlines are pretty funny though.

  I know when I'm refreshing over and over for comments on my fights, anything and everything is amazing. Critiques are what really get me excited, but I always thought any random comment was amazing because it let me know in a really concrete way that someone read my comic. And I just really want people to read my comics :I

    Also, while critiquing a comic in it's comments is super amazing, I think people should also feel free to ask questions about the artists process. Having that sort of direct shop talk with an artist you admire is an incredibly useful tool for improvement, not just for the dudes talking to each other, but for everyone reading along. If you think you don't have anything to teach someone, then you have something to learn and you should be asking questions.

   I'm super bad with commenting on fights, but I'm totally going to try and say at least a little something on each fight that goes up from now on.

[Pennydox]

yea I feel so fluffy when people comment...or even vote. It might be my imagination that certain comics get significantly larger votes than others, even though both are sitting on the same screen, but yours have been sitting there the longest.

I do feel a bit guilty when I've got more to say about one side of the battle than the other side (they both need some love). And of course, when one side is obviously the winner, but you are rooting for the other side, I often feel hesitant about what I say to the winning side. To be honest, in the tag team tournament, I thought some groups were better than others but the scores each one got made me not wanna say a few things about it, since it seemed like a lot of other people thought it was great.

[William_Duel]

Yeah seeing those votes and comments are exciting.  I stopped commenting until the battle ended though because I felt like I was being too...I'm not sure what the word would be, it just felt off responding to everyone like I was being too defensive?    Or something like that so I began only responding and thanking people once the battle was over.

[Iced Tea]

I generally wait til the end of the voting period to reply to comments on my own battles, partly because I don't want to rack up unnecessary/false comment counts, and partly because like Will is trying to express, I don't want to come off as being defensively responding to every bit of critique.

It's a policy of my own to thank everyone who's left feedback, so I feel that doing that after every comment given also creates clutter. That said, sometimes I worry that I sound dismissive in my "Thank you everyone for all the feedback you've given me" blanket response, AND I want to switch it up a bit so that I don't end up repeating the same phrase over and over on all of my battles.

It really is nice to see even short "Hi I saw this it was cool" comments, because I'm a nerd and like to see who's had a look at our battle.

As for commenting on other peoples' comics, like I inarticulately said in one of the Voidcast episodes, even if it's not a magnificent essay, I try to just go and write up a little bit of feedback. What was good about it, and what could use a bit more work. I know I'm guilty of leaving a couple "You guys did pretty awesome I like your comics" messages so please don't get mad at me I'm trying ;'D

Feel bad for commenting, feel bad for not commenting, feel bad for not saying thanks, feel bad for saying thanks, feel bad for ERRYTHANG

[Angie]

If people get mad at you for thanking them for critiquing you, they need to invest in more Midol and step away from the internet. If you feel the need to respond to anything in the critique itself, I've learned in my travels that it's best to just keep it brief or people can and will get offended. I used to leave really long replies which did come across as defensive and did make some people mad because they felt I was arguing with them, so it's best to just keep it brief if you want to leave any sort of reply, and make sure to thank them. (ie Oh yeah, I see the problem with that leg in x panel. Thanks for pointing that out, I will keep working on my anatomy!)

If you disagree with someone, it's best to not say so if you want to avoid drama. The thing about critiques is you don't have to apply every single critique to your work. It's perfectly okay to pick and choose what ones to apply, because a lot of critiques outside of addressing anatomy/perspective will be based on personal preference. (in a perfect world, personal preference would never end up in a critique, but it's gonna happen) There are going to be times where one person will say something and the next comment will say the exact opposite. But you should also listen to and consider every critique you get since people took the time to comment. (and obviously never tell them if you don't plan to use their critique)

I've done a lot of wrong things in comments throughout the years, so I'm trying to make sure you guys don't make the same mistakes I did haha. But messing up is all part of the learning process.

[PyrasTerran]

I've made alot f the same mistakes so I can vouch for Angie's wisdom.

[Darius Corry]

My main reasons why I don't comment/critique (as much) anymore are:

1) Most times artist's method of illustrating is relative. For example, I thoroughly enjoy the rough and unorthodox execution of Heimie's work and it's apparent that I'm not alone in that catergory, so the argument of anatomy, panel placement or structure almost seems useless to "voice". Hell, I get frustrated when Energy doesn't finish because I really like their approach as well.

2) The most elaborate critiques usually ALWAYS hit it on the head with what I intend to contribute so I usually follow with "yeah what they said but keep it up" if anything.

3) Not to be harsh, but after a while you start to notice that some artists are not going to invest anymore into their pages. So once I've mentioned " Hey put some more into the backgrounds" and three battles later we're still in an all-white wonderland It's no point in putting that comment on repeat.

But I will start giving word, I know it kinda sucks to come back to your battle and having no tangible evidence of people being interested in your battle.. .  other than voting.