[Kevin Birtcher]

Carlito - I've been thinking for awhile about a separation of pre-voting comments from the rest.  Just so that there's a kind of clean break between helpful crits and "Good luck~!" hype stuff.

Usually my thoughts are just that once voting begins, not to display any comments made before that point.  But some of that stuff might be useful (like an artist say, "Hey, I didn't finish because my gammie just died" or, "a hurricane hit so I have no power and am posting this comment from a library four towns away"), so it should still be available...

If there's ever enough support for it, I could do it.

[Angie]

It would honestly make more sense to hide the winning/losing % until the end so no one knows who is winning or losing until the results of who won are posted, this includes hiding it for the people involved in the battle. It would potentially keep a lot of drama from ever occuring. If people are really letting comments influence their decision on who to vote for, they need to learn to think for themselves. I personally don't read a single comment beyond the initial "OMG THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE MY LIFE!" hype until after I've read and voted on the comics since I'm far too excited about the comics to bother with the comments until I'm done.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using someone else's crit as an example. If I believe someone else really made a good point it saves me time by just saying "I agree with so and so" so I can devote more time to a different point no one else has brought up. If I'm pressed for time it's an easy way to back up someone else's point. I never minded people doing that in my battle comments. As long as that's not your whole critique that is haha

[PONBIKI]

hey girls i was wondering if you still had the raw of the 4th episode so i can download to my itunes. it be greatly appreciated.  can you  pm it to me possibly?

[Kevin Birtcher]

Just finished listening to the newest episode - great stuff, everyone.

OMG, it's a one line ass pat!!!

[DelBarrio]

The Sandwich. LOL. I had no idea there was a term for that. :'D I apologize in advance if this is super redundant- I'm tired and only skimread the posts prior.

While I personally have no issue pointing out what I like about something as well as what I think needs improvement, I can understand that not everyone is going to have that ability. If you are only going to leave constructive criticism, as mentioned in the podcast- word it in such a way that lessens the blow. Try to sound more like a teacher, like you are there to help and not there to push your opinion around. I'm not saying this because I think OH GOD YOU PEOPLE ARE ASSHOLES, but because you will actually be more helpful if your critique is taken more seriously.

I knoooowwwwww when I first joined this site, I was ultra-sensitive. But I also know that people here were still getting their bearings on the site. There was no guide to giving helpful critiques, nor was there a guide to receiving them. I think we've been doing this VOID thang long enough to have a good idea of how we should be going about critiquing. We can do just as much help displaying to the newbies the proper way to accept critiques as well.

[Angie]

I'd started calling it the sandwich thanks to an episode of Family Guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSR4qh-BD6I
of course the only clip of it in existence on youtube is crappy but you can hear it and that's all that matters.

[Red]

hey girls i was wondering if you still had the raw of the 4th episode so i can download to my itunes. it be greatly appreciated.  can you  pm it to me possibly?

You can download it here http://www.totallylamerobot.com/void/Vcast%204.mp3 if you do "save link as".

[PyrasTerran]

I'd started calling it the sandwich thanks to an episode of Family Guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSR4qh-BD6I
of course the only clip of it in existence on youtube is crappy but you can hear it and that's all that matters.

Hah! That's the only reference I could ever think of when I started hearing this term! XD

[PONBIKI]

thank you finished downloading.. time for the al famous " cat puke moment" lol
thanks again REDRevolver.

[carlito]

It would honestly make more sense to hide the winning/losing % until the end so no one knows who is winning or losing until the results of who won are posted, this includes hiding it for the people involved in the battle.

I've actually suggested that a couple of times in the past. Good to hear you're for that now. That's a really good idea.
I'd STILL say make comments visible AFTER the vote too though.
I disagree people aren't influenced by others comments, I disagree people aren't influenced by how others crits, you can look at a LOT of battles and see that they are. Also, just little things like, "Man, I'm losing now" or stuff like that influence the vote.
 I know I myself have pre-read comments before voting and criting it's influnced me one way or the other or made me think about something differently then I would have and I change how I feel about it... and I hate that I have the option to do that. It's good to read others views, but AFTER the vote.

[Qyzex]

I dunno. Personally, I don't read every comic. But I do like reading the comments. And there have been a few occasions where reading the comments/critiques has piqued my interest enough to read comics I would otherwise have not read.

Again, different for everyone

[(Pi)]

great stuff, ladies + orange.

it was nice hearing the opinions of lots of different people, and i don't think i really disagree with any of them. basically, say lots, and comment fairly about both good and bad.

here's the quick essay i sent to red, literary references and all.

Criticism in Void: Too harsh? Or not harsh enough?

i don't think this is the right question for us right now, honestly. it's not about the harshness of the critique, it's the thoroughness of it. people see someone nailing small details as being "harsh," but that's really more about how the critic words his analysis as opposed to what he's actually picking apart. and it's because of this that i think void has gotten the "softer" image as of late, when really it's just gotten dumber (for lack of a better word).

i've been really lax about handing out crits outside the approvals, and (as toast was saying to us the other day) we TTs and ACs need to step the game up and lead by example. if you're reading this out loud to the vcast audience, they can lead by example, too. people shouldn't feel afraid to offend someone if they see something wrong, no matter how small. in fact, if it's just a small detail people should be LESS afraid to call people out on it. i miss the days of void when people would leave page long critiques of a whole comic, hitting every panel they felt was off or had something poorly done. but people (or more likely, I, because i'm projecting) have gotten busier or lazier or both, and it seems like most crits are kind of generalized likes/dislikes of the entries as a whole. this helps a little, but it's not really that helpful in getting people to address specific areas where they have trouble.

i'm putting a lot of responsibility on the commenter to step up here, and not to say that it's unfair, but there needs to be some stepping up on the artist's part as well. accepting crits for what they are, a single person's view of what could be improved, and not some kind of attack or nitpick or whatever, is vital to the success of this process. bitchy artists who can't take criticism is what makes people afraid to give crits out. as far as i know, deviantart still has a bit of a problem with this, although it seems like it's improved from a few years back. it doesn't matter if someone's being genuine or just being an asshole, there's always something to learn and improve from. we should all be old enough not to worry about getting our feelings hurt from something people said over the internet. grow the fuck up, seriously. that's a bit hypothetical, but i have seen some ridiculous drama come up on this site because of crits, and it's really something we shouldn't have to deal with.

so how in depth is too in depth for a critique? short answer: never. however, it's important to know exactly what it is you're critiquing. the "style" argument gets thrown around a lot as some kind of super shield against criticism, which is stupid, of course, but it's not to say that the argument isn't without merit. here's an excerpt from a correspondence i had with a member a while back.

I am rarin' to rip into that with what I know is legitimate critique, since, you know I actually know a thing or two about the body (not to mention perspective, the little that I know of it) as people did to me so long ago! I do want to know why everything in this thread has not only not been critiqued once, but has been praised every time someone else has posted...this guy can scribble out "Adventure Time"-esque drawings and get fellated for it.

my response explained that in art, it's all about choices. if it's clear that the artist chose to represent themselves in a certain way, a "style," if you will, then you can't exactly critique it like a mistake, which is how we handle most crits here. obviously if someone is drawing cartoony characters, it doesn't really help them to say that their proportions aren't lining up to the loomis standard, that should be a given (but it surprisingly isn't for some people). that said, we as readers still have the ability to critique the piece for mistakes, especially if the style is inconsistent with how it handles repeating characters or environments, areas that the artist is clearly NOT in control of. now, if the artist is totally in control, we still have the option of critiquing their choices, if they could have gotten stronger results by doing this instead of that. we can go incredibly in depth with what camera angles they chose, the use or lack of color to convey emotion, or even the artistic style choices as a whole. style is not a defense against criticism, it's just another thing to talk about.

again, the point i want to convey is that there is limitless detail that we as readers can talk about. this is why i feel like the current culture of light crits is so unhelpful to the community. if you have the time to talk about something in detail that you see as a mistake or a poor choice, then go as deep as you can. you may be right or wrong, that's up to the artist to decide. but we shouldn't be afraid to talk in great detail about this silly medium we all love.

Now, John Red, I have written thee a long letter, much longer than I intended to write when I commenced,- but there seemed to be things to say and I could not resist the temptation to say them.¹ Never before have I written so long a letter. I'm afraid it is much too long to take your precious time. I can assure you that it would have been much shorter if I had been writing from a comfortable desk, but what else can one do when he is alone in a narrow jail cell at an uncomfortable desk, other than write long letters, think long thoughts, and pray long prayers play Minecraft?²

i don't expect you to read my long letter aloud along with every other long letter you no doubt received, but i thank you for taking the time to read my idle thoughts on the subject. i hope this provides some good material for discussion at the recording session and in the forum topic afterwards.

Yours for the cause of Making Amazing Pages of Sequential Art,
TT

^{1 - J. M. Stradmno
2 - Martin Luther King, Jr.}

i've written more on less, but here's the TLDR version:
Talk more. Talk lots more. Get the discussions going, don't be afraid to get messy. Do the best you can to be long-winded and detailed, it'll get sorted out as long as people are talking. Commenters should have no fear of getting rebuked for taking time out to speak about someone's piece, and artists should have no fear of hearing peoples' opinions.



DISCUSS.

[Orion]

Oh boy...

It is far too late at night/ early in the morning to get into this. Looks like a good read from the summery at the end.

[Kuro]

I think you're really not giving a great deal of people credit if you think they're that susceptible to being influenced by the comments.

Generally, when I vote, it's right after I read the comic. I don't get into the comments until after that. But a lot of times, I really don't care to vote on stuff. The vote's arbitrary to me. I know I've cited people who've commented prior to me at times in my crits, but that was more about not wanting to step on the toes of what they already said & typically reinforcing the point they've made. If one person points something out about the comic, then it might just be something they alone see. You suddenly get two people telling you the same thing, it might be worth looking into.

And a lot of times, if the first commenter covered it sufficiently, I'll just sort of ditto them. But a lot of other times, they may just kind of graze the surface, & I'll take what they started & run with it. Hell, other times, I might flat out disagree with what's been said & like to address it too, like telling some new person that they can disregard being called "Too Anime" or something.

Anyway, I think it's silly to think anything people read influences the vote other than the comic itself, & I like being able to see what's been said.

I do like the idea of some sort of separation between pre & post battle comments. Even if there were some sort of timestamp kind of a comment once a battle's been uploaded, it would help.

[Wolcik]

I'm still listening to episode 5th so I haven't read all the comments about it, but I'm at least "little" pissed how you butchered my nickname !!

[squid]

sorry we're not Polish? How is it pronounced?

[Angie]

sorry we're not Polish? How is it pronounced?

This. Americans read Wolcik as "Wole-sik" because that is how it looks to us. We also weren't able to correctly pronounce Chia-hui or Naruto. It's unrealistic to expect us to be able to pronounce every word that is outside of our culture correctly so there's no need to get upset. In the future if you want people to say your name right you have to tell us how to say it, otherwise it's going to get butchered.

[jho]

i really hope you're not being ACTUALLY pissed.... cause that's lame.

[Red]

i really hope you're not being ACTUALLY pissed.... cause that's lame.

Yes, can you please clarify? Depending on what you say I might be pissed too.

[Wolcik]

not pissed, just upset a little - you pronounce RolfQu and Qyzex perfectly which could be hard to say - I don't have problem with Naruto or Chia-Hui.
If I really wanted to avoid you butchering my nickname I had thousands of opportunities to do so.
I still haven't finished listening, cause I have a friend over and it was kinda boring for him since he neither into Void or English. I'm very interested in listening it to the end for a change.

One question though: Why were you laughing after reading my message? On the site note I didn't expected to be quoted and I wrote it like almost everything I write here - in the heat of the moment and out of my ass XD

[jho]

how do you pronounce your name?

you have to realize tho, these people are american, roflqu and qyzex are both americans, so they probably pronounce it like americans. heck being an ESL like you, I often call roflqu is like roflkuh and qyzex like qeezex

I guess what I'm saying is don't be upset over small things like this, and just inform people how to say your name if it's a big deal.

is it "Whole-chick"

[Charlie]

Why were you laughing after reading my message?

It was just a typo that we found funny was all, no harm meant by it.

As for pronouncing Qyzex fine, I can say that for the longest time I was pronouncing that incorrectly too and more like qwhy zex instead of quiz-zex. RoflQu is more or less a no brainer though for us since its just Rofl and Q put together into one word.

[Angie]

Because Qyzex and Roflqu's names follow rules from the English language in order to be pronounced, Qyzex=Kwiz-ex, Roflqu=Rofl-ku, so it is easy for us to pronounce it. We pronounce "wol" as "wole" and "cik" as "sik" because that is how your name works in our language. C functions as an S and the W works as as W there for us. I have no idea how your name is pronounced otherwise because I am pronouncing it in a way that makes sense in my language by following the rules of the English language.

Jack suggested it was Vol-chik which in English, we do not convert W's into V's or C's into the CH sound.

And we were just laughing at Orange messing up the reading of your sentence.

[Wolcik]

The "chick" part is correct, but the thought shortcut for Wolcik would be Wolt, which could be written Volt which is a phisic term.
Wol part would be like wall with an "o" instead of "a" and then chick.
I rather say it right the moment my turn will finally show up, till then I'll keep on improving my battles.

I already said like tens of times on chat that and AIM that my name will be butchered in V-cast - I was more hyped than upset when I heard my name... till it showed up I was like "they say they'll read everybody, but they'll avoid me again".

[DelBarrio]

I didn't know how to say "Qyzex" until I heard everyone else say it. :'D I thought it was "Cue-zex" or "Why-zex." I is good reader.