[mr. robot]

moo-- i'm not saying anything about the focus of comics being on the art or the writing. no matter where the focus is, the crazy ADD pacing still happens. i'd think the effect this would have on writing would be more pronounced and noticeable than the effect on art. i guess you're talking about mainstream/superhero stuff, with the writers being the stars, yeah?

also i did like what i read of Y the Last Man... only the first trade i think. also also, Frank Quitely is a fucking dickhead. the end.

[James]

Frank Quitely is a fucking dickhead. the end.

bwhaahah! mr robot, you and me could be best friends! i think quietly can draw a pretty snazzy cover once in a while (i reluctantly kind of like his covers for american virgin, even though he always draws the guy like a cracked out tranny for some reason), but his comics to me are kinda...mehhhh. you can tell that anything cool he does is obviously because of his writers not because of him. i imagine he lives in a hyperbolic tank and is only awoken when grant morrison needs someone to pencil something for him.


let me reiterate my point on scott mcloud a bit... i guess its a good book for beginners or whatever, but there is nothing in there that you couldnt learn (and more) from just reading a couple good comic books. maybe some people like having it all in print right in front of them or something? i dunno. i just dont like to think that comics can really be TAUGHT, they have to be EXPERIENCED. getting things 'technically' correct is only like 1/3rd of the battle to making a good comic.... i mean look at frank miller, he's technically kind of a really 'bleah' artist, yet his comics are fucking fantastic! for all his misproportioned characters and a story/style ripped right off of 'sinner' (which i also highly recommend to people ---> http://www.comic.de/erlangen2002/max_munozseite.gif), he still knows all the comic fundamentals AND how to tap into all the subtle tricks of the trade you dont get from any scott mcloud book. i just personally think that it is better to sit down and read (not just read but DISECT!!) good works by the likes of miller and moebius, than read a book by the guy who used to do zot. youll learn alot more.

[Wei Ingnan]

i imagine he lives in a hyperbolic tank and is only awoken when grant morrison needs someone to pencil something for him.

BWA HAHAHAHAH

i just personally think that it is better to sit down and read (not just read but DISECT!!) good works

this is a very good point....read it and enjoy it....then go back and read it again and keep asking yourself....why do i enjoy this?....what about this appeals to me?.....how do they accomplish what I am getting out of this?......a lot of people would really benefit as artists by thinking critically about what they are reading......rather than just absorbing it or attempting to copy/appropriate....especially when they do it and don't understand what they are absorbing....quantify your reactions and then you will be able to incorporate it into your work

[Kaelin]

let me reiterate my point on scott mcloud a bit... i guess its a good book for beginners or whatever, but there is nothing in there that you couldnt learn (and more) from just reading a couple good comic books. maybe some people like having it all in print right in front of them or something? i dunno. i just dont like to think that comics can really be TAUGHT, they have to be EXPERIENCED. getting things 'technically' correct is only like 1/3rd of the battle to making a good comic.... i mean look at frank miller, he's technically kind of a really 'bleah' artist, yet his comics are fucking fantastic! for all his misproportioned characters and a story/style ripped right off of 'sinner' (which i also highly recommend to people ---> http://www.comic.de/erlangen2002/max_munozseite.gif), he still knows all the comic fundamentals AND how to tap into all the subtle tricks of the trade you dont get from any scott mcloud book. i just personally think that it is better to sit down and read (not just read but DISECT!!) good works by the likes of miller and moebius, than read a book by the guy who used to do zot. youll learn alot more.

Agreed. XD I've got several of Frank Miller (and two Jeph Loeb) stories sitting next to me, along with a small collection of other graphic novels that I liked (either for the art, or the story. MOST of the comic books I pick up I buy either because I've been told the story is good, or I can see for myself that the art is nice).
I'm still finding that privately studying comics (and dicussing them too!) is one of the best ways to learn how they work.

Course I'll still blow a lot of money on 'how to' books. xD If I get one little tip that helps me along, I'm happy.

[mr. robot]

let me reiterate my point on scott mcloud a bit... i guess its a good book for beginners or whatever, but there is nothing in there that you couldnt learn (and more) from just reading a couple good comic books. maybe some people like having it all in print right in front of them or something? i dunno. i just dont like to think that comics can really be TAUGHT, they have to be EXPERIENCED. getting things 'technically' correct is only like 1/3rd of the battle to making a good comic.... i mean look at frank miller, he's technically kind of a really 'bleah' artist, yet his comics are fucking fantastic! for all his misproportioned characters and a story/style ripped right off of 'sinner' (which i also highly recommend to people ---> http://www.comic.de/erlangen2002/max_munozseite.gif), he still knows all the comic fundamentals AND how to tap into all the subtle tricks of the trade you dont get from any scott mcloud book. i just personally think that it is better to sit down and read (not just read but DISECT!!) good works by the likes of miller and moebius, than read a book by the guy who used to do zot. youll learn alot more.

ok ok. yes, everything that mccloud talks about in his book could be learned by reading real comics that are about things other than comics, and chances are if you can glean this kind of information off of these real comics, you have a much better understanding of it than if you just read mccloud's books and think you own the world of comics. so i agree with you there, and i try to stay away from how-to type books, because it just seems like... what's the point? (will eisner's made a couple of them, however, that really go deeply into pacing and timing and all sorts of things, and i'd say they're worth looking at)

technical correctness is pretty insignificant when you get right down to it. look at, for instance, if i may, YOU. one of the reasons i respect your comic stuff so much is that you don't put very much focus on the technical side of everything; anatomy and perspective and all. but you do it so well, and make up for lack of technical tightness with intense character and really sharp storytelling. i was thinking about this reading through all the comments on your fight with monday. both of you guys are so fucking stylish, and you pull it off so well, that nobody is really going to fuck with you, you know?

[Anonymooo]

In terms of "the writers are the stars now," yeah, Mr. Robot, I was talking about mainstream comics.  I understand what you mean, though, and do agree that art and story are equally important in terms of overall presentation--but in terms of personal preference, I believe that no matter how shitty your art is, if your writing makes up for it it's all good because you read comics in the end.  Hell, Order of the Stick is fantastic, and it has art that anybody can do.  No really, anybody.

As for Frank Quitely being a dick, I can believe it.  Michael Turner's an incredibly nice guy, though.

Since a lot of people's characters on Void use martial arts in some way, shape, or form, I think finding a good training book is great reference in terms of drawing.  For most of the Mooo reference I need, I use Benny Urquidez's Training and Fighting Skills, which has shot-by-shot reference for many types of basic punches and kicks for full-contact karate and kickboxing.  No grappling in here (though there is clinching), which is when I then use...

...More No-Holds Barred Fighting: Killer Submissions.  The book on striking is really handy, but the pictures aren't as clear as Urquidez's book, and the author strongly suggests fighting southpaw if you're a righty.  That's gay.  (Actually it makes complete and total sense, but it doesn't work for me.)  This book, like the Urquidez book, goes in-depth into specific submissions and holds, and shows escapes and turnovers for most of them as well, making this a very comprehensive guide for whenever you want to show somebody getting pretzeled.

And since everybody and their mom uses a fucking Japanese sword, I figured a few resources for that would be good.  Dave Lowry's Bokken: Art of the Japanese Sword shows a bunch of basic one-on-one techniques involving sword-out swordsmanship, and even a few ways to take a sword away from somebody.  The pictures are clear, and show certain techniques from different angles for better reference.

For more in-depth and advanced techniques, Charles Daniel's Kenjutsu: The Art of Japanese Swordsmanship focuses on multiple-person combat, and has several full forms from multiple angles for those of you who want to throw in traditional poses and stances.

[Marley]

HELL YES! Benny "the jet" Urquidez is the man and I know this isnt classified as book or tutorial but it totally gets me pumped when i have to draw a fight scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to8NlexV138 Jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet, so bloody epic. Clips from Dragons Forever and Meals on Wheels (SAMMO HUNG IS IN IT ALSO YOU GUYS NEED TO WATCH THE MAGNIFICENT BUTCHER IF YOU HAVENT ALREADY) =P

Both movies should be watched in their own right... this is just a pump up clip hehe

[uncle_sex]

i guess i'll just do a list of all the books that i would say are must reads either for the art or writing
- The Watchmen by Alan Moore
- Hellboy - Mike Mignola
- The invisibles - Grant Morrison
- Sin City - Frank Miller
- Anything by Paul Pope my favorite probaly being Heavy Liquid
- Fables by Bill Willingham
- 100 Bullets by Brian Azzarello
- Y the last man - Brian K Vaughn
- Madman - Mike Allred
- Preacher - Garth Ennis
- Dork - Evan Dorkin
- Arsenic Lullaby- Doug Paszkiewicz
- Maus - Art Spiegelman
-the batman black and white books
- Solo from dc comics
I'm sure there are a boat load more im forgetting but oh well, I'm not sure if this has been said or not but i'd suggest watching alot of good movies like too alot of the storytelling and the way they compose thier shots can be applied to comics. as far as pure story telling goes i'd suggest reading some ordinary novels as well there is a shit load to be learned as far as writing goes from guys like Bukowski, Kafka and Burroughs.

[RoadMaster]

Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist is a wonderful anatomy book in my opinion with very nice, clean, and detailed illustrations of the body parts within it. It makes a very good reference if you're trying to get a really good idea of body parts, because it will show and label every muscle and bone in your body . I wouldn't call it a "how to draw book", but in my opinion, the only way to learn to draw is to draw anyway, so you shouldn't be using a book to tell you how to do that.


Also, just to throw in my 2 cents about McCloud, I really don't like him. He works primarily upon his own hype and most of his rantings are heavy on the "Experimental bullshit" side. Two things I specifically remember from his site was a big rant on micropayments (which had a plethora of holes in his logic, some of you may remember an old Penny-Arcade comic about it), as well as a thing about panelling on the web, where he said a lot of things were possible and should be done, but in reality he was breaking tons of rules for usability in web-design, while saying some really simple bullshit like "you can have the reader scroll left, right, up, down!" .... NO SHIT SHERLOCK! IT'S A WEB PAGE! Any idiot can see that a webpage does not have the same physical restrictions as a physical page. If I want advice on anatomy or story I'll go to the experts in those fields, if I wanna know how to bullshit my way into getting published I'll go look at Scott McCloud's work, since he's clearly an expert on at least that.

[Berlin Poe]

Hey guys...I'm working my way back into the forum and I wanted to add some reading materials here.

Akira: I know I know...but it's goddamn bueatiful and interesting. It's the only manga I'm gonna mention.
FLCL: DAMN! Well, it doesn't look like an manga. I think FLCL goes a long way in telling a story with minimal detail and a whole lot of character.
Revelations: And anything by Humberto Ramos. He has a very interesting style, that is shown off the best in Revalations. Revelations is a six comic Cathlic church mystery.
Maus: If for nothing else to read a comic that the rest of the world takes very serious. It has amazing art and subtle camera tricks and is one of the best graphic novels ever.

I'm gonna look into a few of the books mentioned here. I started reading Watchmen, but my friend moved away before I could finish...I've read a lot of Sin City too. More importantly I'm looking up those perspective and general writing books...oh and I really want a copy of the Hero with a Thousand Faces...

Thanks for this platform, it's very interesting to read.

[Anonymooo]

Generally speaking, cartoonists on Void work in short-length one-shot stories.  The only long-term continuous stories we get to see are usually in Armageddons, and sometimes SDTs, or during events like Battle Royale or the mammoth three- and four-way fights.  That said, I feel that reading short stories and serial manga are some of the best ways to improve your storytelling, since they work in that "short" time frame.  Even if you have a grand and overarcing plot on Void, the pacing is delivered in short bursts, requiring you to work your writing in on a different level.

Weekly manga is designed to be the perfect quick fix.  You're thrown into a world with just a little explanation, taken on a fast ride for twenty pages, and then you're usually thrown off the bus with a cliffhanger ending.  Whereas monthly-running titles like Hellsing and Blade of the Immortal have the time each installment to give you rising and falling action and sometimes bring things to a climax, a weekly series like One Piece or Death Note has to pull you in from the get-go, entertain you for X amount of pages, and then either move along a plot point (fighting, dialogue, whatever you want), start things so they can be moved along, or wrap things up that have already been moved along.  Good suggestions for weekly series (that are not released weekly in the US) are to study the chapter progression in volumes 9-11 of One Piece, which show character development, rising and falling action, and even throw in a character-important flashback to show how best to insert something like that without breaking the flow of continuity or action.

As I said earlier, short stories are important.  On Void, we don't do graphic novels, we do short stories in comic form.  Looking up Robert E. Howard's Conan, Kull and Bran Mak Morn stories show great examples of how to get a character, tell a quick story from beginning to end, and not make you feel robbed in terms of entertainment.  The collection Rope Burns, by F.X. Toole, is one of my personal favorites and is always helpful in terms of writing the Mooo-Mal dynamic.  Two of the short stories in Rope Burns were combined to make the movie Million Dollar Baby, which is why some of the situations in the book may seem familiar to many of you.

And yes, Shortfury, Benny Urquidez is the fucking man.  My favorite fight of his is actually his fight with John Cusack in Grosse Point Blank, which he choreographed, but his two fights against Jackie Chan are incredibly badass.  Another great movie fighter is Brad Allan, who had a tiny part in Shanghai Noon and a much bigger role in Gorgeous.  While Jackie Chan's choreography is pretty much the same all the time, he really took advantage of Brad Allan's monstrous skill and speed to make the two fights in the otherwise lame-as-all-hell Gorgeous have lasting impact.

[Ziggy]

How to Draw the Marvel way is seconded as a recommeneded book.

[mr. robot]

i liked this book:

the night fisher by R. Kikuo Johnson
i love the brushwork and all. it isn't really terribly spectacular, but it is nice. story is sort of a cliche coming-of-age drug use teenage thing, in hawaii.

[sheldé5000]

reading james and robot talk just lets me know how little i know outside of my own comics.

i um..saw...this book, and it uh...its....its sokay...and yeh. comics.

[Elio]

HAHAHHAA

[ablondin]

That's the first "How-To" book I ever recieved. It's good for youngsters.

[thedoodlegirl]

reading james and robot talk just lets me know how little i know outside of my own comics.

i um..saw...this book, and it uh...its....its sokay...and yeh. comics.

sad but true, I own this book..

[Elio]

THATS A REAL BOOK?! I THOUGHT IT WAS JOKE SOMEONE MADE!

[Silk]

Yeah, it's true, Elio, and the publicity this author has in Cons are disgusting. The prime symbol of the degration of manga in the West u.u If you want any How to Manga books, I know it's not recommended, but be sure the author is Japanese.

[Anonymooo]

Not ALL the How to Draw Manga books are complete and utter dreck.  While the "Illustrating Battles" book I got as a Christmas gift is unfortunately not very useful, the other two How to Draw Manga books I own are of surprisingly good quality.


Perspective is personally one of my weakest areas, but this book breaks it down in concise terms on how to work through basic perspective exercises and get more comfortable with setting up a panel/page, and then working in details.


This one has something a lot of "battle" related how-to-draw books don't have--pages and pages of example poses dealing with some of the more difficult fight-related things to draw, such as wrestling, grappling, and clinching.  To make learning even more fun, it's done with a pair of schoolgirls in varying degrees of (un)dress.

[Corny]

reading james and robot talk just lets me know how little i know outside of my own comics.

i um..saw...this book, and it uh...its....its sokay...and yeh. comics.

sad but true, I own this book..

Me too... but I gave it to my little sister... this book sucks in my opinion.

[mr. robot]

that book is helping to perpetuate every problem that western culture has.

[Marley]

Okay I've gotta crack the whip. No more posts about the crappiest of crappy books ever made by a human being (aka HOW TO DRAW MANGA WHATEVER), or I'm going to go on a deleting spree. Seriously... Its insulting to hear about these abominations of creation when there are incredible books being discussed in this thread. 




The Heavy Metal Presents Moebius



This book begins with an intro by Frederico Fellini in the form of a letter. In this letter he mentions to moebius that he would never ask him to work on a project with him "because you (Moebius) are too complete, your visionary strength is too formidable. What would there be left for me to do?"

Moebius is the god of comics. He is the master of environments, and his range is something that any comic artist should aspire for. Not only is his style diverse, but his topic matter is also. This book contains not only science fiction and fantasy, but also social/ political commentary, westerns and introspective pieces. Normally an artist would spread themselves thin by covering such a variety of subjects, but he hits every topic with the same intensity.

There is also something beautiful in the fact that Moebius' work is unpredictable. You never know what style he is going to dive into, but no matter what its always impressive and always uniquely Moebius. I find that there is a lack of that in comics right now.

*Rant mode turned on*

Comics are changing, but at the moment the majority of comic fans are way too narrow minded. If they receive a comic that is in a slightly different style from their predecessors, they will protest immediately. Even if the change is for the better. I remember there were complaints when Jason Pearson http://www.lambiek.net/artists/p/pearson_jason/pearson_bodybags.jpg did an issue of witchblade (I only read it because jason pearson did it... that comic in general is god awful in my opinion) because it wasn't Michael "I can only draw one kind of face and static poses" Turner http://img434.imageshack.us/img434/9531/showletter31nd.jpg. The result of this kind of fandom is an industry dependent on cloned styles. Work that looks like its been drawn by a machine. There is no individuality. Its just a product that people gather in an office and have business meetings about. 

This is the kind of evil comic injustice that people should recognize. In order for there to be a future in comics there has to be a better, wider appeal. Less of the "I can pencil just like Jim Lee. Somebody will write, ink, letter and color for me" more of the "I just wrote and drew my own graphic novel". The reason I stress this is because the amount of people who are still attracted to cookie cutter comics is slimming, and when they run out or die off there will no longer an american comic market. Many of us are on the right path, but there need to be MORE!! People need to be ENLIGHTENED!!

PS. Don't tell me that comics are booming right now because of the sold out cons this year. Cons have become a media circus where you might run into Samwise Gamgee near the darkhorse booth, instead of a convention focused on the awesomeness that is comics and their creators. People are interested in the spectacle not the content.   

*rant mode turned off*

Feel free to debate my opinion!!

In conclusion, find and read and treasure this god damn book.

[Elio]

Your rant made me tear marley!
Your words are true and full of justice!

So I wrote you a Haiku!

Miss Marley is wise
Comic wisdom she does spin
In her web holds truth.

 

[Anonymooo]

What used to be an industry dependent on cloned styles has been branching out, but I think a point you missed, Shortfury, was that while art styles are branching out in comics today, what's really selling them is the writing.  The "new" Image is powered by J. Michael Strascynski, Brian K. Vaughan, and Brian Michael Bendis--not McFarlane, Larsen, and the "I went to DC, thank God" Lee.  The most critically-acclaimed comics of the past few years may have had exceptional art, like Olivier Coipel, Salvador Larocca, and Mark Texeira on House of M, but what really pushed that "big summer event" comic into people's hands?  The fact that Bendis writes comics so good that it doesn't feel like you're reading a comic any more, you feel like you're reading an actual book because you're actually reading it instead of just looking at the pictures.  Yes, Identity Crisis may have had superheroes, but the subject material was handled with grace and intelligence, crafting a graphic murder mystery with all the lasting value of Torso or The Long Halloween.  So far, the only lasting "cookie cutter comics" I see getting pandered around are UDON's sharp-looking, fun-to-read video game adaptations (they're like cotton candy--you know they're bad for you, but you can't stop) and the above-mentioned Witchblade (ugh.  Just ugh).

The point of the paragraph: the artistic style shouldn't matter.  The content of the book is what matters in the end, no matter how pretty or ugly it's delivered.  I do agree with the "team" system, where one person writes, another pencils, another inks, etc.  Generally speaking, people are naturally stronger in one thing than another--right- or left-brained artistically, so to speak--so even if somebody puts out their own book with exceptional art, if their writing sucks, they've just lost me as a reader because it won't hold me long enough to actually read the thing--all I'll do is thumb through the book and look at the pictures.  Night Fisher is on its way to my house courtesy of Amazon, so I'm looking forward to reading it.  Cliche the idea might be, but if it's delivered well, then again, that's what matters.

I agree that Moebius, and Heavy Metal in general, are great examples of personal, stylized work that carries a lot of weight and entertainment value, and Heavy Metal itself is always ridiculously inspiring to read just for how original it is.  Episodic yes, but it does actually take you for one hell of a ride every month.  I haven't read too many of Moebius' Heavy Metal works, but a lot of his other work shows a breathtaking "kick you in the nuts and force you to watch because it's so visually impressive" quality, like The Fifth Element.  Now I go look for that Moebius collection you put up, Shortfury.

On a final note, actually read my post and look at the books I just mentioned before bashing my opinion, Shortfury.  I get where you're coming from, but like I said, not ALL the How to Draw Manga books are shit.  I can think of those two--and only those two, to my knowledge--that are of actual redeeming quality, and explained precisely why.

On a final FINAL note since you mentioned Heavy Metal, Luis Royo is the man.  I only have one of his books--III Millenium--but it shows off his meticulous and atmospheric paintings, most of a medieval or postapocalyptic feel, not to mention that he draws some of the most beautiful women this side of Frank Cho, without making 'em seem like skanks.  Even if, y'know, it's Julie Strain in his famous F.A.K.K.2 painting. XD