Defaults

Defaults

Re: Defaults
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2017, 07:36 AM »
If we're discussing adding strict rules, we should also be discussing what constitutes a 'default'.  Is it simply not showing up to a comic battle when the submittal period is over?  Does it extend to include incomplete comics (for example comics where a few pages are done, and the rest of the uploaded pages are sketches with word balloons, or purely sketches with no text).

As Red stated before, the rule would have to be a clear-cut one with no room for wiggle-room or favoritism from mods, so it makes the most sense that only a true default should be punished since defaults can be objectively measured. If we start punishing incompletes the same way as a true default, then that would create a much more subjective debate of what constitutes an incomplete comic, and it would fail to acknowledge the fact that even bringing a comic to, say, the rough-pencil stage takes plenty of time and effort.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2017, 08:58 AM »
Thank you for your words, Monday.
While I do not agree with all of them, I will respect your wishes.

I apologize for crossing your personal boundaries and making you uncomfortable.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2017, 09:56 AM »
I believe there is no need to change the ruling on a default. Because a default is a default is a default.

We should be judging comics for their merits as well as their effectiveness in the context of battle. When a comic is in its roughs and doesn't "look" complete or in it's intended form, then the points will express this but even if its fated for a loss (or is it) it is still a comic. What some people should also note is that shortform comics with a lot of thought and minimal drawing time, is completely possible even in a generation where manga chapters are in vogue.   


I would look up
Hot Chick vs Dolly
Sweet itch vs Bad Apple
Meowfia in 6 Pages
GVSR vs Clobberfist
Basil vs Ji Kei
Galvo2304 vs Charlie


To see what worked , What was too ambitious, what felt complete, and what was favorable even though some works here were completely different but felt even or obvious in the time given.  All is fair under the sun and while no one is expecting a transcedental comic , or a good comic, at least rail down and make /a/ comic.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2017, 02:11 PM »
When it comes to defaults, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag.

Defaults suck, both for the artist and for their opponent. Nobody feels good about them, and they are a loss; that said, I think people--at least in the time that I've seen, though it probably hasn't always been the case--are pretty forgiving about them when it's a result of freak chance. When it's accidents, or crazy things coming up irl, people have been pretty good about being understanding and making sure that the person's okay.
I think that people are also generally pretty good about it when the defaulting artist makes a genuine, sincere apology for the default; things like depression and other unforseeable hardships do happen, and on a site like void where a great many of us do know what that's like, I think that there's a fair bit of sympathy extended.

I think the problem typically arises with serial defaults/incompletes that were clearly done last-minute to prevent a full default. It's hard to believe an artist truly feels all that contrite when it's a repeat thing, and when the offers of sympathy and assistance seem like they're being ignored at best and exploited at worst. One or two times is easy to forgive, default after incomplete after default, not so much.

Personal responsibility as an artist is important once you're making a commitment to people other than yourself, and I think people should try to plan accordingly; people who know that they have a tendency to not finish (or start) their battles should think hard before accepting a challenge. If school or work tends to get in the way, then plan your battles for breaks or vacations even if it means you can't battle that often. If you tend to have hard-hitting depression that rears up periodically, give yourself a long drawing time so that you have the best chance of being able to get work done while you're feeling good. TALK to your opponent, and if you realize you're not going to be able to finish, let them know so they can also have the option to halt work and cancel the battle.

If there is an option to properly cancel a battle, I'd like to see a hard penalty for a default and a much gentler penalty for (repeat) cancellation (with the other artist then able to submit their battle as a BB, as suggested elsewhere in the thread). If we make it so that the battle can be canceled all the way up to the last few days but must be accepted by both participants, it allows for sudden or unavoidable issues but also means that in order to cancel, both artists have talked it out and worked the situation out among themselves. While I know that facing the problem head-on like that can be difficult for artists with anxiety, it would seem a lot more respectful than just disappearing on an opponent.

I don't know. I know it's a tough issue, but for the sake of both oldies AND newcomers I think it's important that there be some sort of system in place.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2017, 03:54 PM »
Formal incomplete penalties could get hairy in practice and contribute to a perception of Void as an unforgiving place with super high standards, which discourages participation and raises anxiety.

I'm thinking back to when I was warned against doing a special color page that I figured I had the time and energy for, because that would be received by the readers as an incomplete comic.

I second the idea of lower battles where there may be more default forgiveness so people feel a little freer to test their limits and abilities.

 While we do want people to take Void seriously when artists are doing their best, at the same time, it's just comics we're doing in our spare time because we like comics, and we shouldn't forget that.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2017, 06:13 PM »
If we start punishing incompletes the same way as a true default, then that would create a much more subjective debate of what constitutes an incomplete comic, and it would fail to acknowledge the fact that even bringing a comic to, say, the rough-pencil stage takes plenty of time and effort.

For my  question on 'what constitutes a default' I meant more of the "single page of sketches" that sometimes get uploaded (I've personally done this a few times and even, as mentioned, won with them).  For example comics that do not satisfy battle requirements such as all characters in the battle are depicted, or for specialty matches like scar/death matches if the opponent is not injured or killed, those are removed and are considered a default.  Despite effort going into that comic, it is treated as a default.  Why, then, should a one-two page entry depicting all characters but no substantial content be considered 'ok'?  It's possible to put in way more effort on a comic that doesn't get to stay posted after submittal than one that does with these rules, which I guess may be another topic on its own.  But I think it should be addressed if consistent penalties are going to be added.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2017, 07:51 PM »
Loving reading all this discussion of defaults and quite a few other topics. From repeat defaults, to incomplete, to proper critiques of comics. And of course, the intent that any new rules be made public and obvious well before being implemented. Gonna try and tackle each one individually.

Default - A single default. That is either not submitting a comic, submitting a significantly incomplete comic, failing to use sequential drawing, not drawing your opponent or otherwise not meeting the requirements of the comic in question. In every case the artist should always be given the benefit of the doubt. We've seen plenty of situations where a last minute computer crashing ruins a comic, A personal health problem, or just plain life getting in the way. Yes it's more of a bummer when the default occurs during an event or tournament, especially when other people were vying for the spot, but in general everyone deserves the respect of being asked if they're ok and/or what happened. It might leave a mark on your score, but it shouldn't be a judgement on your ability on a one off.

Double Default - At present, should both artists default, the battle is cancelled instead of being posted. While this does keep the site from having empty battles listed, it also fails to at least enact the normal punishment of having a low score and a marked default on an artist who signed up to participate in a battle. You technically lose more points if your opponent has a comic when you default, than if you both did, and your personal score shouldn't be dependent on your opponents ability. Only the win/loss ratio. I would be fine if a sparring battle was canceled on a double default, but in a regular void battle I think I'd prefer if both artists signed up and did not produce anything, that they still take that ranking hit. Cancelling a battle well before the due date would still be fine, as it would with any other comic. But waiting till the last few days to cancel a battle doesn't sit as well with me. I get that this might encourage more sparring battles instead of regular battles though, so I'd understand why it wouldn't be implemented.

Repeat Defaults - This is when action may need to be taken. While one default can be anything, and well, sometimes life punches twice, we're here as a community to function together. The make up of void has many different facilities to draw comics from, but the regular battle mode and any of the more strenuous events are intended as group efforts. To use sports as an analogy, beyond battles and sparring matches might just be kicking a ball back and forth and if you stop playing it just means no one kicks the ball towards you anymore. But matches, tournaments, and events are groups of people all agreeing to play a game of basketball at the same time. While one guy might have to call out one week due to unforeseen circumstances (say, a sick dog) but if you try to set up a game of 3 on 3 and one person is repeatedly not there, there's no fault on the players not inviting him back if he can't seem to make it with regularity, regardless of reason. Now this isn't to say they should be stopped from participating in solo events or a chance to prove they've returned to fighting shape, and of course given any help they might need. I'm very much in favor of a new rule being instated that should anyone default or produce incomplete comics with repetition, they be blocked from regular battles or events where an opponent needs to draw their character until they can prove, with a set deadline, they can draw a postable comic. I would say tournaments and events too, but those already take comic completion record into consideration for acceptance. I wonder if it'd make more sense to consider the number of weeks a person had to draw, rather than simply the number of battles, but battles themselves are easier to count.

Incomplete - Provided it wasn't so lacking to be a default in itself, incompletes do have something of a bad rep on the site at large. Generally this isn't intended to mean a comic that just isn't full comic shop publishing level of completeness, but rather a comic that has rushed, quick, or just placeholder panels for a majority of the content. These are often very hard to critique since generally "if I had more time" is the answer to so many of the possible things you could critique about the art itself. Instead we need to focus more on time management, structure, and planning a bit when assisting artists who can't quite seem to both plan a full comic and achieve it within their planned deadline. Using a piece of my comic as an example: http://entervoid.com/view.php?id=5784&side=2&iid=02 it's kinda hard to crit much on this page itself since other than perhaps paneling or writing, anything could be altered or fixed up were it drawn to the completeness the back end of the comic had. That's part of why crits are so hard to give on incompletes. Overplanning and not finishing a comic is a different game than say, only throwing a comic together at the last two days out of a multiple week comic. This is always gonna be subjective to the artist in question what constitutes an incomplete, and I'm not sure if there's a fair way to weigh them against defaults. I will say, however, they are still infinitely better than a full default. Partly because of your score not tanking as hard, but also without it there's nothing to critique at all. I am curious then, if it might make more sense that for comics that would otherwise be defaulted for incompleteness, that they should still be posted, but have automatic default scores. So they can still be read, and critiqued, even if they can't be voted on due to not following the rules.

Accepting or making a challenge to participate in a battle, to draw a comic featuring your opponent, is an agreement between you and your opponent that you'll both put forth some amount of effort to produce a comic within your arranged deadline. Messing up, failing to produce, or just losing your progress to a power outage happens, and it sucks. But after a certain point it should have been up to the artist to recognize they either need assistance getting up to speed, or to take a different path in how they draw in void. Some people draw epic serious comics, others might just see void as a hobby, but either way if you sign up to play I think it's up to void to hold you to your word. I'll always hope that is to lend a hand to help you get into it proper, but should the event occur, to put a stop on an artist who for whatever reason, isn't participating.

Especially with how much work void expects from it's artists. Like, seriously, how much would the comics we draw for practice cost if we were to commission them? If you default 3 times and have nothing to show for it on your side, that's 3 free comics staring your character.

TLDR: Defaults should get less flak. Double defaults should count. Repeat defaults should risk a battle ban after 3 times within a year that can be broken with a BB, incomplete need to weigh against that repeat default counter based on mod discussion, and anyone who's struggling to complete a comic should be able to can get help from the community, instead of feeling shame for not producing their intended finished comic.

If I missed anything or need to clarify, let me know!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 07:57 PM by otakutaylor »

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2017, 08:34 AM »
For example comics that do not satisfy battle requirements such as all characters in the battle are depicted, or for specialty matches like scar/death matches if the opponent is not injured or killed, those are removed and are considered a default.  Despite effort going into that comic, it is treated as a default.  Why, then, should a one-two page entry depicting all characters but no substantial content be considered 'ok'?

There needed to be a HARD rule in place for this. In order to be fair and equal, we must remove as many judgement calls as possible. By turning the rules into check boxes, we eliminate any bias or opinion when posting comics.

In my 10 years here, personal bias from mods has been the #1 shittiest thing that people hate. I've seen mods force default perfectly fine comics, I've seen 1 page "comics" that were just text go up, I've seen a cover image nearly beat an actual sequential comic with a story. Among many other things that I thought, and others thought, were bullshit.

Think about it. If every time a "incomplete" comic showed up here's what might happen if we force defaulted:

1. Posting the comic would get delayed by possibly a day or more.
2. There is bound to be disagreement between mods on what is acceptable or not.
3. There will be backlash if a bad call is made.

By making it a "yes" or "no", no one can disagree and there are no loopholes.

Is it a comic?
Did it fulfill the requirements?

In my experience, these are the ONLY factors that can be determined with no opinions involved.

Then what is stopping people from just meeting the basic requirements with minimum effort?
This isn't school, no one is forcing people to be here. If you want to churn out bad work, then there is nothing anyone can do to change that. The IDEA BEHIND THE SITE IS THAT COMPETITION WILL BRING OUT THE BEST IN YOU.

I know that there are still users who will miss sleep to complete a comic. There are also users who don't take the competition as seriously. There are amazing artists who default because something came up. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY. And that is ok. Being hard on people will have different results depending on the person. Punishment can drive people away. A harsh crit can be exactly what someone needed to hear. There is no one-size-fits all.

My goals are:
1. Keep competition fair
2. Keep people on the site
3. Build a supportive community


I am always open to hear opinions on changes, but I swear that any change will have to reflect those goals or it's not gunna happen. I want to be transparent and honest, I'll always explain my choices if you want to know.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2017, 01:05 PM »
I'm in agreement with Red here. With the rules in place, the current structure stresses

Simpliciity, Safety, and Sense.

Simplicity because these rulings are very straight forward to determine and a concept as highly radioactive as defaults are, that is what you need. There is no room for bleeding through the creases, and judgement on the part of the ruling bodies is easily determined. That we are arguing this issue right now with proper poise is a good sign of it.

Safety. The rules easily outline in the favor of character exposure and interaction because that is what is guaranteed in a battle. And that is what is assured for everyone who participates.  If this is favored even in the face of a good comic devoid of said interaction? It would send a clear sign never to do it or attempt it. As well, if something can be understood in clinical terms, it then becomes possible to carry out without emotional involvement on both parties. Currying  the favor for a new cusp just shifts the goal post and creates another cusp which creates unfounded new issues to then discuss, which then drains energy on both parties, which then leads to less actual things being done.

Sense. At the end of the day, everyone can agree that defaults are bad. And character absences are just as bad in the eyes of the opponnent and not because the community said so. These rules ultimately support and favor the participants and the people who volunteer these works because battles /trump/ everything else in this site and the community naturally forms around it. How the ruling body dictates what is good for that community can happen anywhere else except for what is IN the battles themselves which need to be defined in concrete terms so as not to impede with the rest of the "art".  For the community to define what a "comic" is WROUGHT with pitfalls with no one to hold accountable but the artist themselves. Adding that weight on them even indirectly is unnecessary and irresponsible. That kind of talk is what you reserve for in votes and not in hard-coded policy.

Again, hardline stuff like this falls in the jurisdiction of the mods who has to deal this stuff out and take the consequences too. The compassion you seek in supporting artists should actually fall on you, /a fellow artist/.

After reading all the points here, I can conclude that in comparison to a decade ago, that has actually improved. And it wants to improve, but I can say that this is as good as it gets when it comes to policy but the rest is on the /community/ itself to improve on an individual level. Void can continue to get new people but I would rather get a second Pyras, or a less stressed out Red.

 Battles can stand to be high powered affairs in fewer pages and that's actually harder to pull off than making 10 unedited pages. Or they can be comfy as fuck. That's possible to do now ! No one has to die anymore !

The rest of this post is just an opinion, really.
[spoilers]
If there is one thing this place can improve on it's that losing can be fun, and that battling itself is fun. Fun and madness is the companion to Stress and Fear.  Records and win loss ratios are PRETTY DARN GREAT CONSTRUCTS TO WHAT IS ULTIMATELY A MAGIC CIRCLE but I think the undercurrent of losing can be just as exciting if the canonical next comic follows through inside the character's story. As a construct of COMPETITIVEGOODTIMES Void can be looked at as a game. A multiplayer game with goals, challenges, and social interaction mixed with a balance of high energy content and healthy levels of commitment. And like any game, there's hard frustrating segments but it all goes towards building your stats up as an artist. Something this personal deserves to be fair and balanced even if devoid of humans.  At least, that is the compartmentalization I've been running off of.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2017, 01:18 PM »
Thank you Red and to all the mods - this post was intended as a 'hey, what are we doing as a community?' (Monday, your 'it falls on you' comment is illustrating exactly the attitude I kind of hope everyone in the community has - that we should make individual efforts to be more supportive - but shouldn't be forced into it) rather than 'hey mods, step it up'. While some stuff discussed requires mod insight, people like Peta have shown we can all make this place more constructive, fun, and less needlessly stressful for each other :)
sugoi

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2017, 01:42 PM »
Thank you Red and to all the mods - this post was intended as a 'hey, what are we doing as a community?' (Monday, your 'it falls on you' comment is illustrating exactly the attitude I kind of hope everyone in the community has - that we should make individual efforts to be more supportive - but shouldn't be forced into it) rather than 'hey mods, step it up'. While some stuff discussed requires mod insight, people like Peta have shown we can all make this place more constructive, fun, and less needlessly stressful for each other :)

I didn't take it that way at all, it's great to have these discussions. It's good for people to voice concerns!!

ALSO, I think I thought of a solution that doesn't really punish people. I would rather let your battle records speak for themselves.

Ideally, I'd like for people to CHECK OUT YOUR OPPONENT and make an INFORMED DECISION on if you want to battle with them or not.

I'm proposing COMPLETION RATES and SUBMISSION RATES.

You submission rating will be your recent (last 5 battles?) rate of default. So, if someone challenges you and you see their submission rate is 20%, maybe you don't want to accept.

Completion is based on the amount of comics you had recently with a poor average score for quality. The idea behind this is that incompletes get lower quality scores. So you can quickly see what to expect from your opponent. This would help new people too.

This way, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to accept challenges from people that you are comfortable with. No more looking through comics history, you could quickly vet someone with this rating. If you KNOW someone always defaults or does poor work and you still battle them, that on you.

If you want to improve your scores, do better work.

How does that sound?

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2017, 02:26 PM »
It sounds like a soft formality, An unwritten rule at best.

" Please research /communicate with your opponnent to ensure that their work is what you would like to battle" Can be easily stressed when accepting/ giving challenges.

  Low quality comics tend to also be susceptible to the subjective eye by sheer merit of these scores being weighted at all.

" If 100% of incomplete comics are low scoring "
then the reverse /should/ be true
However
" Not all low scoring completes are incomplete "
some either fall under being drawn in an unfavorable style or is graded lower by association of their opponnent's comic [this is bad practice to a certain extent actually]

Finding the score that 100% of incomplete comics make where 0% of other types of comics exist in would make this a fair statement. It may end up that there are "worse" types of comics than an incomplete comic. An offensive but competent one perhaps ?


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Re: Defaults
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2017, 02:50 PM »
if we do this, I'm going to research what the best number to use is.

It's difficult because people will score two comics the same for quality depending on who their opponent is. People tend to score in the context of THAT battle, rather than thinking globally.

Of course, everything is subjective. But, I can see WHAT people score so I have seen some patterns.

The least subjective category is quality. Most people will vote about the same on quality, but their opinions on creativity and entertainment can vary GREATLY. Yes, sometimes personal preference for style comes into play, but generally people will vote lower for a comic that is clearly not finished. Sometimes, they don't!

So, this system would not be perfect. BUT, it would give new comers a good clue on what an opponent is like. If a score is less than 100%, they can investigate further.

My argument was that "defaulters and incompleters will build up a rep in their own" but people pointed out that new users won't know their rep. The idea was that this information would be clearly visible to potential opponents, so they would know what they are getting into with a quick glance.

Also, it would only keep track of your past 5 or maybe 6 comics. That way, a default you made 3 years ago wouldn't matter.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2017, 03:10 PM »
"My argument was that "defaulters and incompleters will build up a rep in their own" but people pointed out that new users won't know their rep. The idea was that this information would be clearly visible to potential opponents, so they would know what they are getting into with a quick glance.

Also, it would only keep track of your past 5 or maybe 6 comics. That way, a default you made 3 years ago wouldn't matter."


I'm fully in favor of Red's idea; the fact that it is a fluid living statistic that changes the more you battle and better reflects the current you is worth the coding for reference alone

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2017, 03:18 PM »
I like this idea! Along with community support for those with problems, I think it is a really positive direction.
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2017, 03:28 PM »
Pasting my idea from the discord so we got The Receipts:

"just have a little thing next to a users name and/or character just labelled
BATTLE READINESS

green is someone who hasnt defaulted/incompleted for the past 5 battles,
yellow is someone whose done one
orange could be 2
red could be 3"

Cause like, a traffic light is a universal symbol. Even if you're fresh to the site, and you see some people with greenlights next to their name, and some with red lights, you're gonna know Something's Up, and can take a deeper dive in.


Re: Defaults
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2017, 03:32 PM »
This could be a good idea. We already keep track of number of defaults in character statistics, so it seems like just an improvement on statistics that are already being kept track of.

Would this new statistic only take into account regular battles or include all types of battles and events?

Like, if someone had previously had a lot of defaults and then wanted to prove themselves again, could they do a number of beyond battles to improve their score?

Re: Defaults
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2017, 03:42 PM »
Pasting my idea from the discord so we got The Receipts:

"just have a little thing next to a users name and/or character just labelled
BATTLE READINESS

green is someone who hasnt defaulted/incompleted for the past 5 battles,
yellow is someone whose done one
orange could be 2
red could be 3"

Cause like, a traffic light is a universal symbol. Even if you're fresh to the site, and you see some people with greenlights next to their name, and some with red lights, you're gonna know Something's Up, and can take a deeper dive in.

I think actually this might not be as helpful as just including a number.

If we give the statistic too much visibility, and divide into such neat and tidy categories, then we risk dividing the community and creating a group of elitist "greenlighters" and a group of "redlighters" that get looked down on.

We want to keep the site about fun and comics and making friends with fellow comics makers, not about getting into the top-tier. I'm for the inclusion of a new statistic, but I don't think it should be particularly more visible than any other information about the user.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2017, 03:43 PM »
This could be a good idea. We already keep track of number of defaults in character statistics, so it seems like just an improvement on statistics that are already being kept track of.

Would this new statistic only take into account regular battles or include all types of battles and events?

Like, if someone had previously had a lot of defaults and then wanted to prove themselves again, could they do a number of beyond battles to improve their score?

This is an interesting point. I can see pros and cons to counting bb's towards that particular score.

Pros would be that it would encourage folks to do more bb's, which is a good thing in my opinion. If they are doing something for self-improvement then I am certainly in favor of it!

A con is that a bb doesn't have a time limit, and if you want to get a feel for how this person does in a battle, then that's not really an accurate representation. Same goes for intro comics.

It certainly would count things like tournaments.

Love to hear more thoughts on this.


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Re: Defaults
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2017, 03:49 PM »
in this instance I think the pros of including BBs and artist comics outweigh the cons. It can be argued that the act of completing several BBs alone increases the chances of average completion on a battle deadline, if minimally

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2017, 05:09 PM »
I would be interested to hear what a serial defaulter thinks would be a proper exit to such a situation.

My thoughts on this however hover back to a certain design decision in WoW where players who were playing for too long started getting exp penalties. After much disdain from players, they decided to flip the formula; they gave people who slept RESTED Xp which took the edge off from not playing and caught them up fairly evenly if not reward them better for it later on.

This didn't stop insomniac players and there was really no way around it, but it did reward a majority of players into taking breaks once in a while.

How could that apply here ? You can give a [post battle] bonus to people who fought a defaulter and give them a trophy for bringing them back to writing content again, like "Redemption Architect" or " Get in the Party Van, loser " Alternatively, someone who cleans a default record should probably be recognized for it, "ほかいり!" 

Don't reward getting stood up however. Just let that sit until it resolves.

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Re: Defaults
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2017, 05:37 PM »
All achievement/trophy R&D is on indefinite hold til 6.0 rolls around

 

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