Is someone helping you thumbnail, cheating?

Santana · « **on:** Jun 27, 2013, 09:19 PM »

Was wondering what the general opinion is on a matter. If a fellow artist drew quick thumbnails for me for either a battle or beyond battle is that considered cheating?

Angie · « **Reply #1 on:** Jun 27, 2013, 09:28 PM »

Depends exactly how involved they are. If the entire comic is designed by someone else, yeah, that's cheating. If you're making the thumbs but showing someone else for feedback and modifying it based on that it's better. It wouldn't be cheating if you and the other person were both connected to the character so that the audience/opponent were aware they're essentially battling 2 people.

PyrasTerran · « **Reply #2 on:** Jun 27, 2013, 09:36 PM »

communication is key, and the sooner the better. I've used a drawing that I drew and Angie colored as thumbnails, and if I'm not mistaken, Puzzlething's thumbs with Blackadder were drawn by Underwood. As long as the thumbnails aren't being used as part of the comic experience directly (for example if they're used as markers for a choose-your-own-adventure comic), then with heads up you should be good, and even if you aren't, always bring it up first to be sure~

Red · « **Reply #3 on:** Jun 27, 2013, 09:54 PM »

I think he's talking about thumbnails for pages and not the image previews, right?

I would consider it cheating yeah. You are assuming you are going up against one person, and having someone thumbnail for you is a huge help... Meanwhile your opponent is going it alone. I would say it's not fair.

Yeah, there's a difference between showing someone sketches and asking for opinions, and actually having someone do the work for you.

Mister Kent · « **Reply #4 on:** Jun 27, 2013, 09:57 PM »

For Beyond Battles I think it would be okay, as long as you maybe give a credit on a page or in the comments. For Vs. Battles, I wouldn't risk it. If you thumb and they offer advice then that would work, but not if they just do it for you.

PyrasTerran · « **Reply #5 on:** Jun 27, 2013, 11:12 PM »

Red: OH

Yeah that's cheating. Unless the opponent knows about it and is totally cool with it, and may get to do something similar themselves.

At which point both parties would want to make it public so no one goes in raw on the comic.

But I'd stick with what the good people above me said: you can have friends feedback and redline YOUR pagethumbs.

Fed · « **Reply #6 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 12:52 AM »

Cheating might be a bit strong word.. There are hardly cash-prices at stake here; how about "bad sportmanship"? ^^

Personally I don't think someone else doing your thumbnails is such a bad thing; it's still your own art you have to present; even if, say, underwood did my thumbnails it wouldn't do much for the end-product, it still would be a showcasing of my own skill and penmanship - in that respect I'd be more likely to cry "FOUL" if anyone else wrote the script, did the pencils, inking and / or coloring

Anyways, if you let others do your work you're really only cheating yourself - it's all about improving, so "sub-contracting" parts of your comic to other people will only be hurting your own development as an artist

Wei Ingnan · « **Reply #7 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 07:45 AM »

Quote from: Synje on Jun 27, 2013, 09:19 PM

Was wondering what the general opinion is on a matter. If a fellow artist drew quick thumbnails for me for either a battle or beyond battle is that considered cheating?

yes....this would be cheating everyone involved.....the opposing artists(all of them if this was say a 'princess themed elimination tourney')....the audience....and finally(as Fed just said) the artist themselves

Red · « **Reply #8 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 08:23 AM »

Quote

Personally I don't think someone else doing your thumbnails is such a bad thing; it's still your own art you have to present;

Some people are way WAY better at making interesting page layouts though. Also, setting up scenes, placement of speech bubbles and sound effects... making dynamic poses in fighting scenes, establishing shots... Sometimes I see GREAT artists who are bad at making comics. And sometimes there are people who are ok artists who are GREAT at making comics!

It would still be the person's art, yes, but think about it this way.... let's say I wanted to make a comic with a fight scene. I personally suck at fighting comics because I'm just clueless about it haha. If I did it on my own, it would probably be alright looking, but if I got like Pyras or P2 to thumbnail for me, suddenly it's going to turn out a thousand times better. All because of the other person's knowledge of composition, and not because of my own skill.

Quote

Anyways, if you let others do your work you're really only cheating yourself - it's all about improving, so "sub-contracting" parts of your comic to other people will only be hurting your own development as an artist

Exactly!

And if you guys really want to team up with someone to help you, just set up a collab battle

E.W. Schneider · « **Reply #9 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 08:42 AM »

Wait, what kind of thumbnails are we talking?

Are we talking about layout thumbnails for the comic you're going to draw?

Or are we talking about the little pictures for each page that we have on battle pages?

Red · « **Reply #10 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 08:55 AM »

Pretty sure it's layout thumbnails.

If you did mean the preview image thumbnails, Synge, then no that's not cheating because those don't matter at all.

E.W. Schneider · « **Reply #11 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 09:11 AM »

Quote from: Red on Jun 28, 2013, 08:55 AM

Pretty sure it's layout thumbnails.

If you did mean the preview image thumbnails, Synge, then no that's not cheating because those don't matter at all.

Yeah, I didn't think anyone gives a shit about the preview image thumbnails. If it's layout thumbnails then yes, I would call that cheating.

Santana · « **Reply #12 on:** Jun 28, 2013, 09:15 AM »

Yeah I ment layouts. I agree with what you guys are saying btw. Especially with the cheating yourself part concerning when your doing a beyond battle.

wade · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 02, 2013, 08:24 PM »

Hey all, I know I'm a little late on this thread but I figured I'd toss in my two cents. I agree in terms of battles yeah I think that can get tricky, especially regarding voting, if it's not addressed upfront. If it was acknowledged upfront I wouldn't think it would be cheating. It really boils down to intent. If an artist is trying to deceive and game the system then, yeah, there's some red flags.

To the point of cheating yourself as an artist by getting someone to do the thumbs upfront I don't really agree with that sentiment. Again, it boils down to intent. If they don't want to do the work then I think it reflects poorly on them. However, this used to be a fairly common practice in comics (I'm not so sure how it works in the industry today.)

I think having other more experienced artists doing layouts could really benefit younger artists. It's admirable to be able to do all the work alone but I think there is a lot of learning opportunities that can happen in that process. How many great comics artists started as assistants doing cleanup or rendering over more experienced layouts? How much could an young artist absorb from a great storyteller?

It's like tracing or redrawing panels. Those practices may or may not have a bad rap depending on who you ask but, when practiced, you're still absorbing knowledge from a more learned hand. I think the same thing applies to an artists cleaning up rough layouts.

Angie · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 02, 2013, 10:12 PM »

Other people doing layouts is still a common practice in the industry. I know Kevin Eastman does layouts for the artists sometimes for the IDW TMNT series.