[(Pi)]

It's already looking much better! Those hands are looking great. Do more full body figures, and spend some more time on them. Really try and get the proportions and the body shapes as accurate as you can.

Keep it up!

[Kuro]

the hands are showing promise. And that first close up of a mouth's quite good.

the figures are still looking rigid & clunky though. These might be brief studies, but don't be afraid to tighten up & refine things, more like the one in the first image only without a hella long torso. overall though, you still need to work on faces. i don't get what you were exactly trying to do with that polygon blocking thing, but that seems overly complicated, & the end results feel like they'd all end up a little too same-y.

keep going.

[thebootstrap]

Hey guys, I appreciate the advice (and especially the encouragement) as always so thanks.

Anyway here's a bit more:

I realize the shoe is kinda off in length and other things but I'm posting anyway to show I'm alright with doing different stuff.


Some eyes...I'll take some more pictures from 3/4 lengths I guess. And also let me save you some time, I realize I should spend more time on anatomy and not so much the face and details. Could you tell me what you think of this for what it is? Consider this a fun drawing or whatever.


And this isn't really that much either, but a friend kind of got me into the idea of "scrapaday" drawings and this is my first one. Just wondering if this quality is fine or whatever, cause I was thinking doing a few a day of just unstructured "drawn from life drawings" and I guess here you go.


My stomach really tightens up every time I come here. I'm actually a little dizzy lol, mainly because I've been checking out the other threads and just seeing the various mantras and stuff displayed or whatever. It's all a bit overwhelming.

I kinda wanted to ask...I realize that this place reveals the path to everlasting glory in the art world, I understand that. I realize everyone here, if they take the advice given to them, WILL WITHOUT A DOUBT become a professional artist. But it made me wonder. What about all the guys who didn't come here and are professional artists? I asked around a bit and sent some emails. But before I got them back, I heard your voices in my head and thought "oh yeah, they just used all the advice Entervoid gives to me right now! That has to be it." and didn't think about asking more, since you guys already know what it takes (if I question this, I'm obviously being defensive.)

But I did manage to speak with various people who have been to art school, and some who get paid for drawings. I suppose you might say if they gave me advice that didn't match up with that of almighty Entervoid, chances are they don't REALLY know what art is. I, being an amateur and seeing their art, can't pass a judgement on what looks good or bad because I'm no good, haven't been to art school, ect ect. But they said strange things like "I had fun while learning" and "trying new things doesn't have to be hard" and it kind of made me feel weird. It was just contradictory advice to what I heard here, I mean everything I've been told seems to revolve around "working hard" and "doing what you need to do instead of having fun" and those things didn't come up with them.

I know they can't be as good as you guys though. they only have 21 and 40 years of sequential art practice under their belt, but I know you guys know the way to success so whatever they said I think I should dismiss them. They are pretty good though...But then again, my untrained eyes and hand probably can't make that sort of judgement.

Well, sorry if that was long. Looked at the forum rules and it said there's nothing against talking. Anyway, just something I was thinking about...Do you have any advice regarding the artists I spoke to?

[(Pi)]

Just keep drawing and stop worrying about who has the right secret sauce or whatever. We give you advice here that we were given that has helped us, other people will do the same. In the end, you're going to have to know your fundamentals, whether from self-study or from art school.

Your stuff is looking much improved, really digging the eye studies. Try and be more definitive about your hands and bodies, I'd like to see you be a bit more bold with your lines there. If you mess up, you can always just start over.

Keep up the practice and just keep drawing.

[Kuro]

I don't feel like reading that much text so I'm only looking at the art.

You're still not following through with these studies. They're not finished. And by finished, that's not to say each study has to end up being perfect & beautifully rendered. But these figures are only blocked out blobby shapes without any sort of definition to them. Hell the one looks like it's the front of a guy's torso attached backwards to his lower body because they're so vague. Like I said, since they're studies, they don't have to be masterpieces, but don't think you're learning anything if all you're doing is drawing blobs. work on the observation more.

the eyes look ok other than being all the same shape every time without any variance. But zoom out & work in conjunction with the rest of the face.

[thebootstrap]

I don't feel like reading

Ah? tl;dr: Sequential art professionals I know just as well as you guys are giving me advice that you guys aren't. Who do I trust?

Maybe I should just cut down my text until it becomes doublespeak. God forbid something in it concerns my growth as an artist. I guess that's what a real person who wanted to help me get better would do, purposefully avoid what I have to say about my own progress. Sorry to trouble you.

I did some crap.


Trying to do something that's close to "a finished product" for you guys.


Drawn from my actual violin. This is the closest to life practice I'm going to get. Wasn't able to fit the whole thing on the page. I'll work on that.


Sorry if my sketches are too sketchy for you. It's getting harder and harder to show that I'm trying something new, or trying to get better.


Note: I meant to practice perspective only in this, so give me what you got on that. The textures and the people are something I added as extra...Eh tell me what you think of those as well. I need to work on faces some more.

About comics.

Got any recommendations for comics to read? I want a real foundation. My friends are really into manga and I can't tell you how lazy these artists are. the anatomy is just all over the place and you're lucky if you get manga shaded with the amount a children's cartoon might have. Like that Osamu Tezuka guy. They call him the "god of manga" but I don't know why. More like "God of quantity over quality" if you ask me. He just pumped out book after book about whatever but the art is just terrible, except the backgrounds and surgery scenes. I've been told he got a degree in surgery but it sure doens't show it. Giraffe neck central, man. I know it was like the 60's but come on, American comics looked so much better, consistently. Art's main purpose is to look good. and this doesn't. If I could find some actual anatomy studies from him I might believe my friends, but whatever until then. proof isn't proof until you have it.

Where's Krat and J.Vandermeer? I appreciate you guys Pi and Kuro but I can't help but feel I'm doing something wrong if you're the only guys trying to help me on this entire site.

[William_Duel]

Hmm why do I feel like every sentence here is dripping with bitter sarcasm?  Listen, Void can be a tool, you take from it what you put in.  No one is forcing you to listen to anyone, you take what criticism you want.  People have given you good advice, which is why there was no need for other people to chime in.  I myself, don't really care to see what people practice.  The practice doesn't mean anything to me if you can't apply it to what you want to draw.  So you've diligently practiced and posted them up for all to see, kudos.  Now draw something the way you want to draw it but with the application of what you've practiced.  I'll point out that guy in the pagliacco suit, he's sketchy but he's probably the best thing I've seen from you.  There's some understanding of shadowing, some decent anatomy, there you go, pursue that if you want.  Some people can do sketchy just fine and others can't.  If you want, refine it, follow through. 

If you want advice on what comics to read, go read the thread with what comics people are reading now, because what you're saying here is definitely up for some scholarly debate.   Tezuka is the progenitor of what manga is today.  His style is highly influenced by Disney, but the man could draw.  He could do very detailed technical pictures, but for the comics he drew, he went down a stylistic path.  But the main reason he is the God of manga is because of the stories he told.  All modern day genres in manga spawned from his stories which at the time weren't classifiable.  His ideas were wildly innovative at the time and usually were inspired by the medical background he came from.  And his stories are all pretty much far superior in terms of storytelling to most comics today which is why he earned his nickname.  And as for what looks 'good' well, if you don't think art from the 60's looks good, or is too cartoony for you, then you were barking up the wrong tree.  Don't get me wrong, I like Eastern and Western comics on equal terms but your argument is silly.

[Nex in a Box]

What I have found to be the best education is not by reading manga or looking over other artists stuff but instead actually sitting down and understanding things from a real life standpoint. I'm going into my third year at art school and I have found that i have greatly improved in all fronts. Not because I took a comics class or read a bunch of new comics, but rather I took a drawing classes and design classes. So if you want the best education, go take a fundamentals class. It can be a drag if you want it to be, but if you get serious about it you will start to really understand shape and form which can help you with framing and developing what is the most comfortable way for you to display your ideas. Looking at other artists in the industry is just the icing on the cake.

[Kuro]

You know what? I didn't read & I really don't want to read. You know why? When I skimmed, it's plain to see there shouldn't be this much angst & bullshit involved. What doesn't come off as really douchey sarcasm or a cry for attention is really unnecessary overthinking & despite what you may think; nothing to really help along the art. Take whatever advice you need & move the fuck along. You know what helps your art the most? Drawing. Drawing & following through & getting the practice you need out of the drawings. Asking what comics you should be reading? That's not going to make you a better artist, just better read. You wanna know what to read? Find the thread on here that's nothing but comic recommendations. But this is your practice thread & you should just be working on getting that practice.

As for the art, it's fine to ink, but last time, there were just unfinished blobby anatomy. But you really should focus on the step in between. Then when you're ready work on your inks, be aware of your line placement. It's fine to hatch & cross hatch, but keep the lines going the same direction. The mixing & matching is looking sloppy & rough. It still looks like you're working to move onto the next instead of working to obtain any real practice. While it doesn't have to be neat, keeping the lines going in similar directions has a better effect than just being haphazard & throwing them anywhere.

[thebootstrap]

I just wanted to make it clear the points I made about Tezuka was just idle talk. Just wondering what to read. It wasn't in reference to my own improvement, just mentioning something my friends deep into manga liked. Trust me there's not much I wanna pick up from that guy, except maybe how to draw organs. Sorry I was not clear, Thanks for the heads up you guys about the comics section, I didn't know about it and I didn't know you would take it this way.

@William_Duel I appreciate how you expressed what you see in my progress. I suppose I really am just grasping at chances for other people to express differing opinions. If you really say I should just go and pursue what I want, say, a sketchy style or whatever, as if I could go on about this sketchiness, why am I being chastised for the exact same thing you saw? Because there exists a "better" in terms of art and I didn't achieve it. I would love to apply practice to what I would like to draw, I am ecstatic you would suggest such a thing to me. But I learned that since I could have always practiced more, and I just stopped lazily to do some "fun" drawings or whatever, it's just very selfish and lazy of me to even think of not drawing fundamentals. I don't even think I'll submit a character here because it'll just be full of holes to poke in them no matter what. Because everyone can always be better. Of course, some threads I've noticed don't have a strand of criticism going for them for many of the first posts of it...I wonder what that's about.

Tezuka Rant
I don't believe I was barking up the wrong tree about the man, because art is one tree and written on it is "excellence". If sequential art is still art, then art's main purpose is to look good. And if it doesn't, it's inferior to something that does. Am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that story is nothing in the face of good, technical art? Some guy gets the title of god of manga, gets an award named after him, and it's because of the stories he wrote? That would contradict everything I've heard there. Because it's the comic itself that should look good. and it didn't!

I had to trudge through MW, Ode to Kirihito AND Swallowing the Earth before I realized this guy just didn't show off his prowess well. I'm sorry, but he didn't. 1,900 pages almost all chock full of giraffe people and shading just when he felt like it. If I've learned anything here it's that style is the bane of comics. It's for weak, lazy people, and I don't want to be like that. If he COULD have made the comics look better, why didn't he? He went for style and a romantic appeal in storyline. Base artists at Deviantart get fellated for the exact same reasons I believe.

I see how easy it is to realize this is where most of Japan's comics come from, no wonder all these characters look like china dolls 100% of the time. Unless you count cool guys like Ryoichi Ikegami. I can barely complain about his art.

tl;dr: Tezuka could have shown off his expertise in his sea of comics, but didn't, if any of us did that, we'd be branded lazy. The man is no god.

Sorry, I guess I have feelings on the guy.

@Nex Like I said earlier I didn't mean to make it sound like reading comics would benefit my art, I just wanted to talk about something. I'll go somewhere else for that, sorry. I believe I've done everything necessary to show I'm trying to grasp understanding by myself. And please I must say, classes are just not an optiion right now. Classes are not an option right now. There, I've said it again to satisfy the next person who suggests classes to me. I will take them as soon as I can. I will do everything I can to improve until then.

@kuro I appreciate even your skimming. It lets me know you really did care enough to grasp the idea of what I meant. I apologize for insulting you and am glad you still could take something from it, I really should write less.

But again I was just talking with the comic reading thing. Just asking around. Nothing to do with my betterment. Thanks for the heads up because I may go to other threads in the future. Now that that's clear.

I will try to be more mechanical in my hatching. I really like hatching. I guess I've seen rough hatching sometimes (like "organic" hatching I think is the word) but I guess I did that wrong too. Yeah I guess it does look sloppy. However you make it sound like that's a negative thing. I may agree with you, but others might not agree that there's a "better' in technique here or there. It's tough to distinguish fact from opinion in art. As if this was a fact that straight, same direction hatching is better than a sloppy style placed wherever I'd like. It's just getting hard to know what to do sometimes.

I really apologize for writing so much with no art. I was going to post more perspective practice but I'm actually not done with it yet. next time I post I intend to have a bunch of doodles involving 1st and 2nd point perspective shots. Have to start somewhere you know.

If I am chastised for having a post with no art in it I will still feel secure because I know others have done this with no consequence.

[Hiemie]

I just wanted to make it clear the points I made about Tezuka was just idle talk. Just wondering what to read. It wasn't in reference to my own improvement, just mentioning something my friends deep into manga liked. Trust me there's not much I wanna pick up from that guy, except maybe how to draw organs. Sorry I was not clear, Thanks for the heads up you guys about the comics section, I didn't know about it and I didn't know you would take it this way.

@William_Duel I appreciate how you expressed what you see in my progress. I suppose I really am just grasping at chances for other people to express differing opinions. If you really say I should just go and pursue what I want, say, a sketchy style or whatever, as if I could go on about this sketchiness, why am I being chastised for the exact same thing you saw? Because there exists a "better" in terms of art and I didn't achieve it. I would love to apply practice to what I would like to draw, I am ecstatic you would suggest such a thing to me. But I learned that since I could have always practiced more, and I just stopped lazily to do some "fun" drawings or whatever, it's just very selfish and lazy of me to even think of not drawing fundamentals. I don't even think I'll submit a character here because it'll just be full of holes to poke in them no matter what. Because everyone can always be better. Of course, some threads I've noticed don't have a strand of criticism going for them for many of the first posts of it...I wonder what that's about.

Tezuka Rant
I don't believe I was barking up the wrong tree about the man, because art is one tree and written on it is "excellence". If sequential art is still art, then art's main purpose is to look good. And if it doesn't, it's inferior to something that does. Am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that story is nothing in the face of good, technical art? Some guy gets the title of god of manga, gets an award named after him, and it's because of the stories he wrote? That would contradict everything I've heard there. Because it's the comic itself that should look good. and it didn't!

I had to trudge through MW, Ode to Kirihito AND Swallowing the Earth before I realized this guy just didn't show off his prowess well. I'm sorry, but he didn't. 1,900 pages almost all chock full of giraffe people and shading just when he felt like it. If I've learned anything here it's that style is the bane of comics. It's for weak, lazy people, and I don't want to be like that. If he COULD have made the comics look better, why didn't he? He went for style and a romantic appeal in storyline. Base artists at Deviantart get fellated for the exact same reasons I believe.

I see how easy it is to realize this is where most of Japan's comics come from, no wonder all these characters look like china dolls 100% of the time. Unless you count cool guys like Ryoichi Ikegami. I can barely complain about his art.

tl;dr: Tezuka could have shown off his expertise in his sea of comics, but didn't, if any of us did that, we'd be branded lazy. The man is no god.

Sorry, I guess I have feelings on the guy.

@Nex Like I said earlier I didn't mean to make it sound like reading comics would benefit my art, I just wanted to talk about something. I'll go somewhere else for that, sorry. I believe I've done everything necessary to show I'm trying to grasp understanding by myself. And please I must say, classes are just not an optiion right now. Classes are not an option right now. There, I've said it again to satisfy the next person who suggests classes to me. I will take them as soon as I can. I will do everything I can to improve until then.

@kuro I appreciate even your skimming. It lets me know you really did care enough to grasp the idea of what I meant. I apologize for insulting you and am glad you still could take something from it, I really should write less.

But again I was just talking with the comic reading thing. Just asking around. Nothing to do with my betterment. Thanks for the heads up because I may go to other threads in the future. Now that that's clear.

I will try to be more mechanical in my hatching. I really like hatching. I guess I've seen rough hatching sometimes (like "organic" hatching I think is the word) but I guess I did that wrong too. Yeah I guess it does look sloppy. However you make it sound like that's a negative thing. I may agree with you, but others might not agree that there's a "better' in technique here or there. It's tough to distinguish fact from opinion in art. As if this was a fact that straight, same direction hatching is better than a sloppy style placed wherever I'd like. It's just getting hard to know what to do sometimes.

I really apologize for writing so much with no art. I was going to post more perspective practice but I'm actually not done with it yet. next time I post I intend to have a bunch of doodles involving 1st and 2nd point perspective shots. Have to start somewhere you know.

If I am chastised for having a post with no art in it I will still feel secure because I know others have done this with no consequence.

Here is some time you could have spent drawing.

[thebootstrap]

How incredibly clever of you.

You're right. I could be drawing now too. You could be drawing now! Everyone could be drawing instead of typing! Why type!? Let's all move to Tegaki E so we'll ALWAYS BE DRAWING!

Being chastised on a forum for typing. Interesting.

Make a thread of this forum's standards, please. I just don't know what I have to do to meet them. It's like punching smoke at the moment.

Interesting that...You don't chastise anyone who replied to me that they should be drawing. Oh they have drawings already? I have drawings already. Oh but draw often? I draw often but I wouldn't dream of posting most of it. I just can't wait until I become good enough until I'm able to enforced double standards on newcomers.

[Angie]

Okay I usually only post for constructive stuff but I have to step in on this one

Tezuka Rant
I don't believe I was barking up the wrong tree about the man, because art is one tree and written on it is "excellence". If sequential art is still art, then art's main purpose is to look good. And if it doesn't, it's inferior to something that does. Am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that story is nothing in the face of good, technical art? Some guy gets the title of god of manga, gets an award named after him, and it's because of the stories he wrote? That would contradict everything I've heard there. Because it's the comic itself that should look good. and it didn't!

Growing up I was heavily influenced by Todd McFarlane. My dad bought me issues of Spawn and I loved to look through them. I have roughly 40-50 issues of Spawn in my comic collection somewhere. And I can tell you out of those 40-50 issues I honestly only read maybe 2-3 of them. Why is that? The story was so bland and awful that I could not make it through a single issue. I liked the art but found the comics themselves really boring. Sure, I was 12 at the time, but I still try to go back and read them from time to time and I'm like what the fuck is this shit? I can't tell you a single issue of Spawn that I thought was entertaining and well written.

Now look at four of my all time favorite comics, I'm bringing not only Tezuka, but two other classics into the mix that I imagine you would probably find artistically inferior

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/193223466701lzzzzzzz.jpg -Apollo's Song-Osamu Tezuka
http://z.about.com/d/manga/1/0/V/0/-/-/Tezuka_Phoenix_500.jpg -Phoenix-Osamu Tezuka
http://w00.middlebury.edu/ID085A/gallery/manga/rose.jpg -Rose of Versailles-Riyoko Ikeda
http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/200px-Devilman_manga_cover.jpg -Devilman-Go Nagai

I'll start out by saying that yeah, you can dislike artists all you want, that's cool. I'm not going to stand here and tell you you're wrong for not liking Osamu Tezuka. I will however get on you for saying art is all that matters. By today's standards all 3 of the above artists probably don't look that amazing artistically. Riyoko and Go both have styles that reflect the styles that were big at the time. But despite that, all of those comics still hold up great today story wise. I read all of Devilman in one sitting because the whole thing was just awesome. I try to go back and read a lot of my Image comics from when I was growing up and I can't make it through them anymore because the stories just didn't hold up when I got older.

The whole point of the comics is to tell a story. You can have all the pretty and flashy art you want, but if your comic isn't at least somewhat well written and entertaining, who on earth is going to read your stuff? Sure, Todd McFarlane's art is pretty but if I can't read his comic because it's so awfully boring it's like I bought an art book and not a comic.

Story will demolish art every. single. time. Look at http://trcs.wikispaces.com/file/view/maus1_p33.jpg/61750296/maus1_p33.jpg -Maus by Art Spiegelman. His work is rough, expressive, and his characters are stylized and simple, but Maus is considered by most to be one of the best comics ever made. He probably could have done a better job art wise on a technical level but it wouldn't have been the same.

Now if you have story AND art you're golden. But a comic with art that isn't that great but has a great and engaging story will always have a place on my bookshelves over the flashy boring piece of crap with nice art that I'll look through at the comic store once.

[Wei Ingnan]

Wow....you almost made it an entire year since I had to shut down a thread of yours.....tell you what...... why don't you go back through all of your old threads including the ones from your old account like I just did........ and go over everything all of these people have been telling you all along.....because you obviously haven't been paying attention or are actually incapable of recognizing what is wrong

you want help with your art...people here will and have been trying to do that for quite a long time now both on this board and thru PMs

you want help with your emotional problems(and I strongly urge you do so because they are holding you back) do it elsewhere

I think what would be best for you is to spend a few months just drawing instead of wanking around this forum.....you've improved just in comparison between the artwork from your old account and this one even with all of your bullshit......so I'd like to see what you can do without the bullshit

you want a place where people will endlessly stroke you and give you the attention you so obviously crave.....well it ain't here....maybe go try your 'friends who get paid for drawings'


thread closed