Defaults

Defaults
« on: May 16, 2017, 02:26 AM »
Disclaimer to start with: I know there's legitimate reasons to be upset at some people for defaulting if you know the exact circumstances behind it and the reasoning is a bit crap ('procrastinated too much on games'). This is not about that.

After my last default was caused by intense depression & anxiety (like, I felt physically ill when I tried to draw), I've been thinking a lot about how we as a community treat defaults on here.

I know in the past Void has kept an approach of not babying artists. Like it's serious business here and you either show up or get shut down. However I think understanding towards mental health, financial situations (especially for 'Millennials' who face a tough economy) and other similar circumstances have come a long way. I think it's great to encourage people to submit SOMETHING - and to give them some sort of motivation to do so - however I also know a lot of the community on here go through a lot of shit, and the thought of them being shamed for having trouble managing to do a fun comic amidst that makes me somewhat uncomfortable. I know personally in some of my darker moments that kind of attitude makes me feel even more anxiety about doing comics on here - does that mean Void is just not for people with depression etc? It seems a bit sad when we also encourage art as an outlet (see these wonderful comics by Astro Sean and Fearn for top examples). We also don't generally know reasons behind defaulting and it's easy to jump to conclusions.

This is a point of contention I know for tournaments with limited spots, where a default can represent to some people a wasted spot they missed out on.

I know this discussion comes up from time to time, but just interested to hear people's thoughts on how defaults (to some extent, even incomplete comics) on here should be handled. What's the best way to motivate people? Void has sort of been moving towards a Welcoming Community vibe which personally I'm on board for because I like to enjoy making comics as a release, but I do occasionally see the attitude that Void should be brutal and unforgiving around - I dunno. What do people think?
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 03:26 AM »
Personally, I'm glad that we are moving away from treating defaults as a sin. As Jetster said, shit happens in life and its unavoidable. Mental illness, financial issues etc, are a huge problem in real life and as a community we absolutely should be understanding and lend a hand when we can.

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that a battle involves another person (or persons); it is incredibly unfair for one artist to put in a lot of effort in a comic and not see it returned when the deadline hits. To challenge and accept a battle is a responsibility and it takes time and effort; if you don't have the time nor are you giving it the effort, don't accept a battle. When I defaulted on all my battles, I felt awful. Uni was stressing me out, causing me to default on Hats in Johnny vs Wizzie, and me procrastinating and not giving my 100% effort on the Animal Girl Squad fight; two fights where my opponents gave it their all. At the time, they must have felt so disappointed that I didn't reciprocate.

Yes, Void is fun, comics are fun, creating and bouncing ideas off people is fun, but at the end of the day making a comic takes time and if you have all these other responsibilities that can take up your time, or you are unfortunately plagued by any sort of illness, then maybe you shouldn't be accepting a battle in the first place, no matter how much you get your jollies off on accepting a challenge. And if you are continuously defaulting (or submitting incomplete comics), then maybe it's time to take a step back and rethink things for a bit. If you want to make a comic but don't have the time, Beyond Battles are definitely a thing and i highly encourage people to make em.

I'm not entirely sure how we can motivate people to submit complete comics, but I believe teaching time management such as in Pyras' bootcamp, open communication between members, and a good atmosphere is important. I think that when a default or an incomplete comic does happen, we should ask the defaulter if they are ok and if they'd like to talk about it but if it's a repeat offender, I think it's within the mods' rights to give them a temporary battle ban until they can show a bit more responsibility on their behalf. And it goes without reason, don't give them the title of Big Dumb Baby or I will shove a lamp pole up a mod's ass and I don't care if I go to prison for it.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 05:16 AM »
In my relatively short time here I've both won and lost through default, and neither time felt good. When I was the one defaulting, I was going through an intense depressive spiral. I was an inch from being homeless again, wasn't making enough from my new job, I definitely wasn't happy with my artistic skill at that point, just absolutely nothing was going right and I just could not bring myself to work on it. I also didn't tell anyone what was going on, and it was agonizing watching the days pass knowing that I had wasted all that time with nothing to show for it. So I took a break, and didn't do another battle for months. And that was for an event, so I know there were people who were upset with me. When I won to a default, I was in open communication with my opponent the entire time, and knew exactly what they were going through. Roughly same situation, couldn't work on it, they felt really bad afterwords, didn't do much for a while, but because they were open about it and let me know what was happening, there were no hard feelings.

So like, look. Defaulting happens. It sucks. I think a lot of why it happens is people jumping in without really planning out how it's gonna get done, or shit happens and that time they thought they had disappears in a puff of actual real-life responsibilities, and real talk, no one is psychic. 2-4 weeks is a long time and a lot can pop up in that time. But this is where open communication is key. If you're struggling, there is an entire community here to talk to. And if you just gotta wait until life is more stable, then do it, this isn't school, you're not paying money to be here, there's no obligation to battle.

I do agree with Sabu in regards to repeat defaults/incompletes in that a battle ban might be a good idea for those who this has become an issue for. Life happens, but there is a point where it becomes a matter of personal responsibility. Maybe have it implemented for a set period of time, or they have to show that they can at least finish a solo comic before having the ban lifted or something.

Bottom line, there're almost always options, and communication is key to let your opponent or the community know what's going on so there's no confusion or bad blood. I want this community to stay accepting and welcoming, but there is a point where enough is enough and your personal choices and actions start affecting the experiences of others.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 05:20 AM »
Pyrras's Bootcamp can help?

Re: Defaults
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 05:20 AM »
I totally get the effort people put in, but you admit yourself the guilt you felt was already there and I don't see the need to compound it and make people feel like they are disappointments etc - if they already know they have let people down.

Bans for repeat offenders are an interesting idea and I wonder if a sort of self-guided boot camp is a sort of way to lift the ban (eg. small deadlines for each stage of the comic to be met and a final comic posted)? Generally I like the idea of just checking in with people though - and reaching out when you're having trouble.
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 07:13 AM »
I totally get the effort people put in, but you admit yourself the guilt you felt was already there and I don't see the need to compound it and make people feel like they are disappointments etc - if they already know they have let people down.

If someone defaulted, as I stated in my previous post, the first question that should be asked is 'Are you okay?' but the second question should also be 'Why did you default?'. It should never EVER be asked in spite or any bad intentions, but as a way for the artist to look at themselves and see what went wrong and do better. It's not an easy question but it is a necessary one; it can offer a way for the artist to do better and learn from their mistakes, otherwise it's easy to wallow in self pity and that helps no one. The tough question doesn't need to be asked right away of course and it doesn't have to be answered in a public setting but I do believe it does need to be asked.

The action of defaulting does need a certain level of guilt because the cocktail of bad emotions is sometimes a good enough deterrent to not default again, and you can't exactly stop others from feeling disappointment about someone else's default, that's just human nature. A default shouldn't be treated as a sin, but that doesn't mean it stops being a mistake. And keep in mind that in most cases, if someone defaults, everyone usually forgives (or forgets) they defaulted a week later, and even then it's the gentlest of scolding. Hell, we have extensions specifically so we can decrease the possibility of a default and the battle can get cancelled to avoid letting people down. It shows a degree of responsibility and a healthier method to deal with whatever life throws your way.

As a community, we must be welcoming and friendly, but we are also a community dedicated to artistic improvement and we have to ask those tough questions. To default has repercussions and that's just a part of life; How you respond and learn from it is the best you can do in a bad situation.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 07:41 AM »
Key things I'm picking up so far:

- People should be encouraged to communicate more if they are having issues during a battle (I like this as a kind of buddy system - why not actively check in on your opponent and encourage each other? I am going to do this now haha)

-  Bootcamp is pretty great

- There need to be consequences to defaulting that don't involve publicly shaming people in comments etc.

Could there be a system implemented where if you hit a certain percentage of defaults/incompletes, you are unable to participate in battles unless you go through some form of a boot camp similar to Pyras' but perhaps one that's less intensive for mods/more self guided and encouraging?
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 09:07 AM »
Technically you do not owe anything to the community, since this is work we're not getting paid for and only doing for our volition. All's fun and we're trying to get ourselves informally trained for the world of grueling unfun comics.  Now if this WAS a paid gig, this would be as simple as simply not compensating you while you have your sick day. But I don't have the authority to speak on that level.

But

YOU DEAD ASS OWE THE PERSON YOU FOUGHT A SOLID.

And This Is Ultimately Between You and Them before it becomes an issue between you , them, and their circle of friends.

If you want to resolve a default.

You Resolve It With The Person You Stood Up.

You Do Not Owe Us Anything.


Re: Defaults
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 09:19 AM »
For sure this is not paid and the community is owed nothing - but as a community here to help each other grow etc as artists don't we owe it to others in the community to help each other out with issues that cause defaults? And by that token it would be cool if new members weren't discouraged by having someone who defaults regularly challenge them and then default?
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 09:39 AM »
No.

Absolutely not.

It is on the artist to come to this site and keep those problems in check for themselves.

What effort you yourself volunteer, you do so because you believe it helps the ideal of this site and not because it is expected of you. This makes people like Pyras' actions more worthy because they seem to set a gold standard for people to aspire to.

Me personally ?

I would disassociate with serial defaulters. Not because they aren't ready but because they are relying too much on the site's resources to carry them through. If I did something like that, I would be honorbound to change from it, me, With Depressive Episodes Who Only Talk About it With maybe 2 or 3 people Ever.

You could draw an absolutely shitty 2 page comic and it would still be better than a default. There only exists EXTREME reasons to default and it should never become habitual of anyone.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2017, 10:28 AM »
TW: Self Harm and Suicide

Hey guys.

I am glad this topic was brought up, because. Well. You all know I am a serial defaulter.
So I feel somewhat relieved to know that some of us are starting to acknowledge the difference between encouragement, and humiliation.

Um.

I’ve been going on and off VOID in a constant circle. You’ve seen me in Art Jams, and I even applied for Armageddon ’17.
That said, I haven’t done a 1v1 battle in a while, because, as Monday mentioned, I feel dread when I fail to deliver a comic.

About 4 or so years ago, I started showing symptoms of what seemed to be limited to Mood Swings, Lack of Tolerance, Rage Outbursts, Self Harm out of Guilt, and Suicidal Behaviour (Which turned out to really be Deperssion, but I wasn't diagnosed until 1 year ago. I've been getting better, but I still have my slumps and fallbacks)
I believe it was around the time Comic Clashes between otakutaylor and Gregly were on my to-do list.
If you all recall, I managed to draw EXACTLY 2 shitty page comics . Out of fear of defaulting completely.
It took a toll on me.

Because I knew I would get whiplash from the community either way.
And that is the thing about “YOU DEAD ASS OWE THE PERSON YOU FOUGHT A SOLID”
We all are aware of this.
And adding to that. This is exactly how Depression works.

You feel like garbage for not being able to deliver anything. You feel guilty for accepting a challenge, or opening one. You already feel the humiliation you’ll have to go through in the site for delivering drafts/sketches/unfinished works.

That internal conflict, ends up burning all energy you had left to work on the comic. And it gets worse, because the Guilt Circle never ends.

The thought of “I guess it is a Dog eat Dog world here in VOID” eventually appeared.
So with that in mind, I started playing a more aggressive role in here, and other sites.
What was the result? It backfired with spectacular results.
Nowadays, things like passive aggressive dialogue to “encourage”, doesn’t work like it did.
Perhaps we lost the ability to “grow a spine”.
But if that is the case, why don’t we take the chance to grow a Tender Heart?
I believe that is what Sabu might be feeling too when saying we should definitely take into consideration asking first a "Are you okay?"

Now.
It is being mentioned by Monday, when having a Depressive Episode, it is a good idea to talk offsite to 2 or 3 people about it.
By saying so, I hope you also have the idea in mind of “Talking offsite with 2 or 3 people about how disappointed you feel about someone defaulting”.

Monday, if I read it right, you also tend to suffer from the Mental Illness that has been constantly mentioned.
If so, I would have thought you to be a tad more compasisonate towards others, as you know exactly what Hell it is to live with Depression.

I apologize if this ends up as an attack to you, Monday. While not my intention to be rude, I want you to acknowledge how irritated I got by several comments you added.
I do not wish any animosity to arise between us, because it would be quite the hypocrisy attitude of me to completely devaluate what I just wrote.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 11:01 AM »
I agree with Sabu and Jetster that we should implement some sort of help or rehab, as it were, to help defaulters.

Boot Camp is a good idea-- and judging on the two graduates so far it seems to be really working! But because Pyras can only take on so many people at a time,  I also suggest small practices- 4 or 5-pager artist match beyond battles. We can even give them a fun name, like "greasers" or "minis".

Heck, even in an art thread, and I'll propose this one as an art jam: make a one or two-pager narrative. Just, small things to work back up to doing a comic on a deadline, and also ultimately (and I'll get to this later), they're FUN.

About serial defaulters: if we do just shun them or shut them out, then it's no better than the old Void tradition of giving people those crying baby icons. It's childish, vindictive, and ultimately unsympathetic.

Understanding a situation and trying to help someone deal with what seems to be a recurring problem is more important than yelling at them about things they already know.

Of course, if someone is offered help, and they refuse to even make the effort to go through 'rehab' as it were, then the burden is on them as an individual for either not noticing the problem or refusing to change it.

Another thing I would like to encourage is that you don't need to be perfect.  I was talking to another voider who recently did a published comic, and she had mentioned when she sent in her comic she feared she'd be torn apart for various little things: lettering, or composition, what have you.

Turns out, her comic actually got really good reviews, and Void had just made her scared.

When I told my former university professor, and friend- a freelance animator- about the workload of Void (I've gathered over the course of TTT you need at least 10 fully colored pages in 2 weeks to not be considered 'underperforming'), it actually frightened her how much art we are supposed to do.

And I'll say right now, I'm still physically recovering from the work I put into Tag Team Tourney 2017-- and some Voiders have wrist issues caused by the overwork imposed by some tourneys.

But WHY are we working so hard? It's not purely out of competition-- it's also the shame of being incomplete, and making something that isn't perfect. The fear of being a disappointment, when you have tons of people's comics to be compared to.

And this is something that I think is related to defaults: we get scared to make something less than perfect, because of how we'll be viewed in the community.

Void is very much the 'it's harder in real life!' college art class of comic-making, and I also feel sometimes that pressure to not disappoint can lead to the ultimate disappointment OF defaulting.

Void is competitive, Void is collaborative, but Void is also fuckin' stressful as hell. As well as rehabilitative help, we need to work on our approach to viewing people's comics as good fun as well as competitive practice.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 12:00 PM »
There's a lot of good ideas in this thread. Working hard in prep of real world deadlines is important, but getting enjoyment from what we do as artists is equally so.

Opinion wise, witchunting is a waste of time. On the other side of the coin, its a bit disrespectful to the other artist if you go into a battle and can't put forward. Whatever the reason it's a sad happening for everyone involved.

Possible solutions of course are making the site more supportive, doing more bootcamps and other ideas suggested previously here.

At the moment there does seem to be a general opinion (and imo a toxic one) that the only comics worth reading are miles long. I'm advocate for quality over quantity. (And life not strife)

Another idea would be a gentler 'sparring match', with more options for extensions, fewer rules, less minimum requirement. Perhaps even a maximum requirement, so no more than 5 pages. This might help take the pressure off our more stressed or put upon members, and make battling more accessable to them. With both sides going in expecting less, they can both hopefully enjoy it more fully.

Mouse out o7

Re: Defaults
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 12:15 PM »
I haven't read everybody's arguments yet but I want to say that the mods have discussed this on and off again.  It is certainly an eternal problem and ultimately I don't think there is a concrete solution to prevent all defaults ever.  Communication between artists can definitely let them cancel and plan ahead of time.  As someone with a spotty record and his own depression issues I understand.  But I think the big problem with serial defaulter is that it makes them less approachable.  Event participation is decided often enough on records and I dont think its a big surprise to say that people with better records are often chosen.  Mostly I just want to say it is a point of discussion and this is indeed a healthy discussion to have.  Just know that of our discussions a point that has been stressed is that people might get a warning beforehand if they continue that way.   No one is getting a surprise punishment.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2017, 12:32 PM »
each artists put a lot of work into this site because i think each one of us knows that entervoid.com is a great tool for personal growth, not just artistically, but to grow as persons, as a community and to share ideas and network in a meaningful way. The concept of defaulting is built into the mechanics of this site, as a no-show is an automatic F.

Ideally the goal of battling isn't to not default, but to make a good story and improve your techniques and to get feedback. So when i read that people submit their comics to void out of fear of a default rather than to show improvement I feel like i have to add something.

So when we default, it feels extra bad because its like we've allowed that part of us we don't want to see expressed into the world to appear. So depression is obviously an natural reaction to defaulting because it hurts our self-image. We want to show the world that we do have the potential to grow and to become better. Some of us are more sensitive to this than others. And that is fine.
As Monday has stated, you do not owe void the site or the community anything nor do we demand anything from you.

That said, entervoid.com is simply a vehicle, a tool- and there are more that one way to use or abuse a tool. If you're a repeat defaulter, be open and honest about it and ask yourself and others how you can manage your time better, or work with a system of matchups that is beneficial to your current situation, or even if battling is the best way to engage within the community at the time. Its easy to get caught up when an interesting character is issuing a challenge and you decide to battle on impulse.

There are many avenues, many routes you can take on this site that isn't needlessly stressful and still be a contributing member of the community.
A large part of growth is being honest with yourself and others- and being able to see yourself is the first steps to self-improvement through the site- because then you can work out a method that works for you personally.

Talk to other repeat defaulters and as a group work out a method. start collaborating instead of battling. Set a generous deadline for yourself and really focus on planning and organizing your time. Start a sub-group. Work together to make shit happen. Open communication. Take power. Make culture.
Theres no limits.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2017, 01:08 PM »
There has been a call recently for action to be taken against defaulters and incompleters. It has been suggested that if you do these things frequently, then your ability to enter battles should be taken away until you submit a completed BB, or something similar.

This is a really difficult thing. I am not sure how necessary it is, but I want to hear thoughts on it.

On one hand, frequent defaulters are way WAY less likely to be selected for tournaments. They also build a reputation for themselves. There are certain people I would never team up with or battle, because personally, I want a good fight from my opponent.

To me, this seems fair. But putting out sub-par work, or not at all, you're limiting who is willing to collab with you, battle you, and what tournaments you can be in. And if someone DOES want to battle or collab, I'm assuming they KNOW your reputation and they are willing to accept that risk.

IF we did have a punishment for defaulters/incompletes the rules would need to be extremely clear to keep things fair. Just as an example, lets say you default/incomplete x number of times. You would need to submit a completed BB before you can battle again. I'm not sure I see the value in this, but I'm willing to hear reason why someone might think it's a good idea. Depending on your reasons for defaulting, it might not change a thing.

The excuse you had for defaulting would not be taken into consideration. If your computer dies, you were in the hospital, or you got lazy, its a strike against you. The less judgement that needs to be made by a person, the better. This would eliminate any bias a mod might have (or that you think we have :P ) No reason is more or less valid than another one. It is what it is. I think a major problem with the site used to be that punishments were dealt out whenever a mod thought it fit. I think our current staff is very level headed, but we are all humans and have friends on the site. So, not to seem cold, but having a clear-cut rule is the fairest thing to do.

Personally, I'm not super keen on punishments. This is a small community. We all know each other, and our battle records are easily seen. I HOPE that everyone takes pride in their work here, and does their best regardless. Shit happens and I'm not about to shame anyone for it.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2017, 02:35 PM »
I'm with the mods on not giving punishment, however as Elge mentioned there is kind of a cycle that I see some people get stuck in - feeling like they have to battle to be apart of the community or something? I don't know. I would like to see these people encouraged to take themselves away from battles and focus on getting back on track. I agree that the sort of trigger limit should be non-discriminatory to circumstances. Perhaps optional to make it less like punishment?

eg. 'hey we noticed that you've defaulted on x% of your battles now - while this is ok, we recommend not taking any battles again until going through boot camp/whatever we have set up to help you work through whatever is making that happen. Let us know if you're having issues that the community can help you with'

I'm not keen on max page limits though certainly it's alarming to me to hear people so pressured to push out so many top quality pages. Let's be sane and healthy here.
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2017, 06:13 PM »
Shot in the dark, but it seems to me that the bulk of default-related stress is rooted in anxiety to produce something complete in a short amount of time.
And I'll tell you that trying to make 9 pages in one week for a 1v1v1 battle was brutal on my own.
They weren't even fully done.

Would we consider working in teams to tell stories?  Where someone does the writing, someone does pencils, one inks, one colors, etc.?  There'd be a little credits box at the beginning/end and everything.

I know this is already a thing with character collabs, but I'm asking for beyond that.  Of course, we should still do independent projects, but if enough people express interest in team comics, can this be a thing?


In addition to the bootcamp, I'd recommend doing some of the 3-panel requests that have been posted in the Awesome Strip Adventures thread.  It allows you to do character interaction exercises, and I think it was around here that I tried to tell mini-stories with limited space.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 05:11 AM by Pitafish »

Re: Defaults
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2017, 06:21 PM »
I know I'm just a newbie, but here's my two cents:

I think that if a system were put in place to punish repeat-defaulters, it would have to be a clear-cut, written rule like Red mentioned. I think a rule like that might help repeat-defaulters to be more careful about the battles they accept. However, it would also probably up the overall pressure on the site, and if the rule is too unforgiving it may scare away potential newcomers that are more beginner-level artists.

On another note: I've noticed that often when someone submits an incomplete comic, people critiquing the comic respond almost the same way as if the person had defaulted, with things like "unfortunate you didn't finish! Better luck next time!" and nothing else.
There has been talk here about helping to remove some of the shame felt by struggling artists, and I think a good step would be for us as a community to make an effort to give some good feedback to unfinished comics. I've heard it said here before that it's better to submit something than to default, so I think that our reception of unfinished comics should reflect that sentiment. Even if the art is still sketchy, you can always say something about the storytelling, or mention if there were parts you thought were well done.
And this might be a nitpick (and I'm certainly guilty of it myself) but maybe dispense with the "Too bad it's not finished" part. The artist knows they didn't finish. Tell them something they don't know instead. I think this would help remove some of the stigma of submitting something unfinished, and knowing that their unfinished work will still get a proper reception may relieve some of the pressure that makes anxious people give up entirely.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2017, 11:47 PM »
CW: Extreme Misanthropy

Elge in regards to your statement, you are free to take my words at face value as I did yours and consider the possibility that I have suppressed emotion to inhumane levels and I do not wish it on anyone. But I do owe you what I believe is the honest truth.

Whatever aspects of what I said that you thought was unreasonable or untenable, are actually things people can change away from and are not permanently bogged down by. You can do better than define yourself by those mistakes, and you can do no worse than tying yourself /to them/ as it sinks to a bottomless sea.

That black miasma will always be there and it demands much and more out of us that  if we DO do work,  our work would have to be these selfish creations that puts us at risk e v e n m o r e.  And that brings me to my final point, if you're someone that's going through problems, I can put forth the best effort I can to try to help you up but I learned from experience that it will invite my own problems into it and we /both/ /eat/ /shit/. Sometimes it is simply better to divorce your feelings and associations entirely than to deal with me. 

I am also admitting that /yes/ I do not want to go back there, because I can help others without endangering myself. I can serve other roles in this community without investing my emotions, and I can definitely draw fun pictures of merit even though I think shit sucks. I learned to keep my distance because people say the kind of shit you just said. And I have cut Guilt Out of My System BECAUSE IT IS USELESS EXCEPT AS A MOTIVATION TO DRAW.

Going forward I'd like you to take these things into consideration.
- 1. Defaults do not matter. I am only taking into account the behaviors and decisions behind them. It's not worth stigmatizing for and frankly the recent battle displayed SOME VERY GOOD BEHAVIOR I HAVE SEEN IN A WHILE without derailing into a hate fest over someone defaulting which honestly is the worst outcome of a default.  ( If that battle was chiefly the reason this thread is happening then it boggles me why default/guilt trips are still an issue. )

- 2. People who are disappointed of a default are ALLOWED to be disappointed of a default because it also means that even the dfing artist was worth their piteous emotional investment. But they don't ACTUALLY get to have any claim over your mental landscape, and if you can't make it up to your opponent then Okay it's fine. Nothing here is worth a human life, and that person walked away with a win. They'll live.  The Mods already put it on your record. You're a nasty crime boy with straight Cs and now you need to take steps to not let stuff like that happen again. Accept it. Learn from it. Move on.

Move on.

-3. Defaults are ultimately a statistic,, and usually a result of something more important than void, A free comic site, That people eventually grow out of or go back to for whatever zen they want.  Feel free to use this site for selfish reasons, but the moment those reasons turn into hurting someone else habitually, then you forgo your own protections and invite sanctions from the ruling body. This is a fair and necessary measure to ensure that this site's values aren't compromised.

4. Do not ever claim my own circumstances as yours to understand and I will not expect the same of you. Furthermore I would advise against internalizing other people's problems from this point forth as your own. You do not own them either.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2017, 11:52 PM »
I believe that action should be taken with chronic defaulters (which are honestly very isolated cases, to begin with), whether it's because they are stuck in a spiral they don't know how to get out of, simply don't care, or whatever other reason it may be; if someone keeps hurting themselves on the playfield, you want to get them off the field to recover and assess.

We've agreed that at least whatever action is taken won't be without warning, and the conditions for getting back in good standing won't be anything intensive

But if kind words and sympathy are plan A, we do need plan B for when kind words and sympathy aren't fixing the problem (and it is a problem, some people will inevitably be upset or disappointed to varying degrees depending on what they know about the default/incomplete, and as some members have pointed out at the end of the day it is a 2-way street between opposing artists)

We the staff are pretty happy with the direction the community has taken through the past years, though, seeing even potential instances of conflict self-diffused by the community, and members more open to helping their peers out. Human nature won't allow utopia but most of us have gotten pretty good at being at least friendly with each other

we also can't assume that all people with anxiety/depression/etc. would/should react or behave or be treated the same way. How elge is affected by his depression is valid, and how Monday combats his depression is also valid. We would need to balance fairness with how different each case may be

Re: Defaults
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2017, 12:12 AM »
But hey

got a chronic default/incomplete problem?

Then come on down to Pyras' Boot Camp!

Where we'll teach you the tools to break out of your downward spiral and come out with that sweet wholesome "completed" feeling!

We've got scriptwriting! We've got mini-deadlines! We've got day to day coaching! I won't rest until you're on task and cranking out pages! You will hear me in your sleep!

So what are you waiting for, Armageddon 2020?? Stop by Pyras' Boot Camp and sign up today!

spiritual fees may apply; Pyras' Boot Camp is not responsible for side effects from hearing Pyras in your sleep
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 12:15 AM by PyrasTerran »

Re: Defaults
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2017, 12:39 AM »
Mostly agree with what sabu said. Also kinda neutral-but-sorta-in-favor regarding a distinct rule that Red mentioned could be implemented. It might require a trial period to see if it can help or not.

Also, a PSA: Cancelling battles is still a thing. If you really don't feel like you can do your comic, or if sudden stuff happens that ruined everything, and it's still a fair amount of time to that deadline, do let your opponent know of the situation so that you two can drop it and save yourselves some work and bad vibes.

Re: Defaults
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2017, 01:54 AM »
( If that battle was chiefly the reason this thread is happening then it boggles me why default/guilt trips are still an issue. )

Just to clear this up

Quote
After my last default was caused by intense depression & anxiety (like, I felt physically ill when I tried to draw), I've been thinking a lot about how we as a community treat defaults on here.

Note that I was one of those slapped with the crying baby along with a lot of disparaging comments from members of the community after going through a situation where just after a tournament beginning, I had to suddenly find a new place to live in fear of being kicked out of my increasingly unliveable sharehouse. So I've been affected by shitty attitudes to defaulting personally.

Things are DEFINITELY getting better but it is something that has been on my mind and I feel like it's better to get things clear on the direction we want this community to go and the support we offer people who are continuously committing to comics they cannot finish. While a recent default might have sort of just reminded me of my feelings towards my own defaults, this thread is not aimed at anyone in particular or in response to any specific comments and I hope no one thinks that.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 02:22 AM by Miss Jetster Fukken Jay ❤︎ »
sugoi

Re: Defaults
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2017, 07:14 AM »
If we're discussing adding strict rules, we should also be discussing what constitutes a 'default'.  Is it simply not showing up to a comic battle when the submittal period is over?  Does it extend to include incomplete comics (for example comics where a few pages are done, and the rest of the uploaded pages are sketches with word balloons, or purely sketches with no text).

While I've never defaulted in the sense that I have always turned something in, I have turned in very incomplete comics, literally 1-2 pages. I've also won with incomplete comics.

In these cases I would personally advocate that if you are having a rough time, you should be reaching out to your opponent because these battles can be cancelled.  Personally, I would much rather cancel a battle than force someone to sit and wait to disappoint themselves.  You don't need to explain why, just state that you can't handle it right now, or you won't be able to finish.  Regular Battles can happen anytime.

Keeping the above in mind I think, rather than waiting for a default to happen and punishing after the fact, it would be far more ideal (and I say ideal because it would not be easy) to take preventative measures and take down comics where a default will be imminent (maybe there's a 'default/cancel battle' period, like 1 weekers can't be cancelled, 2 weekers can be cancelled in the first week, etc, and both parties must be contacted so it's not a surprise).  Sure, if one person drew a whole comic and was ready to submit it sucks for them.  Let them submit it as a Beyond Battle, it'll still be read and voted on, but it can still be judged on its own merits.  Defaulters can still be tallied the way they are now, and I think it's entirely fair to consider that status for events such as Arma which are long drawn out battles with a focus on teaming up and working together.  At the same time having other people there to support you through the process could even be what those people need, idk, but that's where things like boot camp come in I guess.

 

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