[MaxHazenCRB]

Last time I read about a topic of this nature was pre 2000!!!!

Apparently, changes are taking place, but snails move faster.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/women-in-comic-books/

....it's not all about women either...

[neens]

you really haven't read anything about this since 15+ years ago? o: cause this has been a hot topic as of late!

but yea, it's the same deal with video games. they don't understand half the audience is female, OR they don't care and simply don't wish to cater to women.

[MaxHazenCRB]

I haven't read an article or book on the subject with this much umph, if you will, in quite some time. Not exactly the easiest issue ton discuss either...

[Angie]

I've already done my part! Considering I work on the My Little Pony comics and most of the staff are women. I think the TMNT micro issue that Marley and I worked on was the first TMNT book to have an almost all female staff too.

[MaxHazenCRB]

I've already done my part! Considering I work on the My Little Pony comics and most of the staff are women. I think the TMNT micro issue that Marley and I worked on was the first TMNT book to have an almost all female staff too.

That's good to know.

While that is definitely progress, I think the real root to the problem , as the author of the article, echoing Scott McCloud, lies with an industry that is reluctant to change old ways.

I see lots of change on the industry and tastes of the readers, which is why the article caught my attention. Perhaps the mainstream perception and the perception of the actual creators of comics nowadays are quite different. Comics, after all, is only Marvel and DC to most people...

[Kuro]

"Let's fix this problem I only bother to read about every other decade or so. here, read this article focusing solely on only 2 publishers, & the zero solutions I can personally offer on the situation BUT FIX IT YOU GUYS."

no shit this is a problem. how are you shocked by reading about this in comics when society at large still hasn't solved these problems? but your call to action here insisting we fix it is kind of strange. firstly because if you're really that passionate about this, why only read up on it after long intervals of what, burying your head under a rock? but also, void has always seemed to have a fairly diverse crowd of creators for the length of time I've been on the site. that was one of the aspects I've really liked about it.

[Rose]

void has always seemed to have a fairly diverse crowd of creators for the length of time I've been on the site. that was one of the aspects I've really liked about it.

That's definitely an awesome thing about the site. And as long as we keep encouraging our members—regardless of gender or anything else—to become the best artists they can, we'll be doing our part to fix this problem! I think a lot of us are already working to change the way we portray women in our comics and all those other tropes that your article talks about.

So let's keep it up!

[MaxHazenCRB]

"Let's fix this problem I only bother to read about every other decade or so. here, read this article focusing solely on only 2 publishers, & the zero solutions I can personally offer on the situation BUT FIX IT YOU GUYS."

no shit this is a problem. how are you shocked by reading about this in comics when society at large still hasn't solved these problems? but your call to action here insisting we fix it is kind of strange. firstly because if you're really that passionate about this, why only read up on it after long intervals of what, burying your head under a rock? but also, void has always seemed to have a fairly diverse crowd of creators for the length of time I've been on the site. that was one of the aspects I've really liked about it.

Well Kuro, you're surely living up to your Personal Text line with the subtle diss. I can be shocked when society hasn't solved these problems because the individuals most responsible for articles like that being written is us. I wouldn't frequent this site if I didn't see something that gives reason for optimism and anticipation of a bright future for comics as a respectable medium. My reason for posting the article was to generate conversation about an issue that is important to me as an aspiring creator in the industry.

I haven't read an article or book on the subject with this much umph, if you will, in quite some time. Not exactly the easiest issue ton discuss either...

A statement referring to the article.....not an indication that I don't read. So Kuro, doesn't that fact that the writer of the article only refers to two publishers say something about the industry? As a comics/gnovel creator coupled with a deep affinity for the medium, knowing how enriching a good comic/gnovel can be for readers, I thought the article worthy of notice and discussion. As for solutions? We know the answers. Slowly progress is being made. The article, to me, served as a barometer for the current condition of the industry in a particular aspect.

[Kuro]

Firstly, the word "gnovel" is the dorkiest thing I think I've seen for a bit. So stop with that.

Secondly, the greatest strides being made aren't by the big two. So when you post something kvetching & that's all it's focusing on it's myopic. "Industry" talk is the WORST talk, but made even worse when people can't see past the two sputtering, monopolizing IP factories. So it's a lame article.

Thirdly, not THREE months go by without a "respected" (old, white guy) creator saying something racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, etc, or like Brian Wood, revealed (publicly) to be a total sleazebag. "But THIS ARTICLE YOU GUYS! Real conversation starter." It comes off as tone deaf, like "the industry" in general, that a lame article like this is your tipping point & not all of that other, far more egregious shit that has kept happening. I feel your call to arms here, of all places, is silly. For a lot of the problems it has had, being progressive has never been an issue with Void. Probably because everyone here's already of the same mind on the issue.

[Angie]

Even the big 2 are making steps in the right direction, which is awesome to see. 5-10 years ago we wouldn't be seeing things like the new Batgirl, Gotham Academy, new Ms.Marvel, female Thor, black Captain America, etc.

[justarhymes]

I don't really think either woman Thor or black Captain America can really be counted towards the big two diversifying unless they stick around (and they stick around without the old version in alternate comic series). They both make "big" changes from time to time, only to revert back eventually. There has actually been a few female Thors and a black Cap, as well..they might not have made it past single issues though.

[Adam@!]

My favorite was black female thor!!

Storm as Thor thank you Art Adams and my fish hook art wise to even read comics!

[Jed]

I will do my part to fix this by leaving the "industry"

[sheldon]

Not to derail, but, as a species, I really dont think we're gonna make it. Everyone is so pissed off lately! What's the deal?? It's like there's a global shortage on cookies and masturbation and all other things that make us relax.

But this female oppression thing baffles me to no end. I Just Don't Get It. Can someone explain to me, in a nutshell, what it is women want? Like in general. Is it equality? Is it attention? Is it to be catered too?

My opinions on the matter are irrelevant given I don't understand the issue, but in my EXPERIENCE, I have worked with/above/for women in the fields of animation and comics, and only a small percentage seemed perturbed about this issue.

I'm gonna go read that link now...but I think I already know what it's gonna say.

[EyeAmPhibian]

I think the opinion that comics are this sexist, male orientated beast, is pretty much down to the people who are saying this stuff are just choosing the wrong comics to look at and buy.

There are tonnes of brilliant non-sexist, male and female created stuff.

Just ignore all the crap, and tell your friends about the good comics.
I think it is showing with the slow decline of Marvel and DC's popularity that opinions and tastes do and will shift.

Also, Kuro, lay off the new guy! He'll never come back!

[Crimson Kumiho]

I apologize for how incoherent my rant probably is. Fostering this deaf puppy is seriously cutting into my sleep time. Not completely awake.

Bit of a cop out argument though, Joe. As it's a generalization in the first place, arguing that the fault of opinion is due to choice of perspective is just as relative. It's pretty much just stating that the opinion is a generalization if you think about it. If what you're constantly exposed to is smut and you form the opinion that it all must be smut, it may be unfairly grouping things together, but the initial opinion that made you jump there is still valid. Just as there are great movies and books, yet the most popular of those aren't always the highest quality (lookin' at you Twilight and Titanic). Which encourages the medium to become saturated with blah blah blah, shake that tree.

While obviously you should share with friends and the like when you've found quality, ignoring crap doesn't help anyone except the people who make money off crap. Critics are an important part of the ecosystem, a part of quality control. If you publish something, you're accountable for its flaws (critics are as well), you're not let off the hook for writing poor characters and using bad plot devices just because you're not personally misogynistic.  It's out there in the public now, you don't have to be a fan to read it and you can't know that you aren't a fan until you've suffered (or enjoyed) it.

As for what women want, sheldon, I dunno. Not really what I focus on. Also, can't really give a general answer in any case because not everyone wants the same thing, so it could very well be all of those things. None of them are really bad things to want anyway; if another demographic is being catered to and getting all of the attention, feeling ignored is a pretty natural result. In story makin though, gender is generally just a factor for how something is poorly executed. The issue seems to be that people focus too much on making female characters rather than making characters. Race and gender aren't the sum of a character after all, which the newest work-around seems to be using preexisting characters and changing sex or gender. Which is (technically a step in the right frame of mind) lazy but making new things isn't really what the big'uns like to do. Loses the bias edge where it would have to be judged on its own merits without any clouding nostalgia and fans already familiar with the lore. Why create when you can reboot?

Point is, ignoring something you don't like isn't necessarily the best approach. It's a social issue, not a bully. If the people who don't like it have no voice, all that's left is ego-feeding sending the message to the creator "This is okay and what people want to see, and they will pay for more of it." Other point is simply to give encouragement where it's due. Recognize the difference between characters mistreating each other and an author mistreating their characters... or something.

No one probably argued that criticism is unnecessary and pointing out that negative feedback can easily be constructive likely isn't something everyone here doesn't already know, but whatever. Also, it took me a few minutes to figure out that "gnovel" wasn't a typo. Made me chuckle.

[neens]

I think the opinion that comics are this sexist, male orientated beast, is pretty much down to the people who are saying this stuff are just choosing the wrong comics to look at and buy.

no? the opinion that comics is male dominated is because, well, it is.

yes women work in comics, and yes there are other comics that aren't dc and marvel. it is still mostly men.

[Angie]

Yeah, while my experiences in the industry have been positive and I've worked with a lot of women, I know that that's the minority. Last I read half of the comic audience are women now so I'm not as worried about women being afraid to read comics. But there still aren't a lot of us in the industry.

[EyeAmPhibian]

I was obviously commenting in way too casual a manner for this thread, and probably am now too.

I do know that the "industry" in America is very male orientated, but I don't think comics as an entity away from the corporate world are.
Let me put it from this perspective. I am an Illustration student and in my Art based University there are certainly more women in attendance than men. The same applies to my course Illustration, and the people most passionate and interested in comics are women. A lot of guys aren't remotely interested. Based on this little cross-section of society that I encounter, women are the future of comics, not men.

When I've been to Illustration and comic fairs, the visitors and the creators sitting behind the tables seem like a good mix of men and women. Probably 55-45. I'm really new to the "scene" so I don't know if this is a startingly new change and perhaps a few years back it would have been rare to see a girl in attendance but this is how it is now.

Also, its not just comics and Illustration I have had an insight into, but many aspects of the Art and Design world, Fashion, Theme Park design, Product Design , and I'd say there is a very healthy mix of sexes.

Basically I'm just hopeful, and sorry if that pisses anyone off. I'm not a negative type of person.

I would rather celebrate the work of great creators, male or female, and tell everyone about them, than try and boycott the "system" and be a big downer. If a comic is in my opinion a pile of shit I don't hesitate to state my opinion about it, but I'm much less likely to preach about how shit something is, than preach about how great something is.

[Crimson Kumiho]

No issue with that. I'm just a "¿Por qué no los dos?" kinda person. Balance and expression regardless of mental attitude. If you'd rather only talk about the positive because that's your preference, that's fine by me. So long as there's no mention of negative feedback being unnecessary altogether. I was gonna pull out some simile but I'm lazy.

[neens]

Let me put it from this perspective. I am an Illustration student and in my Art based University there are certainly more women in attendance than men. The same applies to my course Illustration, and the people most passionate and interested in comics are women. A lot of guys aren't remotely interested. Based on this little cross-section of society that I encounter, women are the future of comics, not men.

When I've been to Illustration and comic fairs, the visitors and the creators sitting behind the tables seem like a good mix of men and women. Probably 55-45. I'm really new to the "scene" so I don't know if this is a startingly new change and perhaps a few years back it would have been rare to see a girl in attendance but this is how it is now.

Also, its not just comics and Illustration I have had an insight into, but many aspects of the Art and Design world, Fashion, Theme Park design, Product Design , and I'd say there is a very healthy mix of sexes.

your anecdotal experience does not represent anything but what you, personally, have experienced in your art school. my art school experience was very different, for example! which is why I tend not to trust anecdotes, too much bias and often not representative of anything else.

it's cool to be positive and all, but I think it's also appropriate to call out the bad stuff and be critical.

[sheldon]

Well how well do "comics for girls" sell? Because no one in here is naive enough to think that mainstream comics are successful because they're GOOD.

Edit:

BECAUSE THAT'S JUST THE THING.

I don't think the argument should be "The majority of comics is aimed at Men" I think it should be "The majority of comics are aimed at People Without Any Taste (see idiots)"

I don't read mainstream comics because they're unfairly aimed at me, I don't read them because 99% of them sukk tha nutz. To be fair, I barely read comics, but if i ever read a "girl" comic, I'd have to say...Wetmoon? And even though it was by a dude, it was good. AND I READ IT BECAUSE IT WAS GOOD. On the flipside, I consider Scott Pilgrim to be targeted at girls, and Scott Pilgirm sukks the aformentioned nutz harder than the best of them.

So what do you think about that? Is there any stake in that argument? You can make "comics for women because women are upset about it" which to me is TOTAL trite bullshit, or you can just force the medium to make better shit. Create the world you would like to live in, so to speak.


I think i'm onto something here...

[Angie]

Well that's actually a problem with the art industry in general. It's not that stuff aimed at girls is bad and doesn't sell, it's because a lot of people use stuff geared at girls as an excuse to make bullshit. Look at all the really bad animated shows directed at girls. There's a reason I gravitated towards the cool actiony boy stuff when I was a kid.

Stuff directed at girls can sell, I mean look at manga before everyone learned about online manga readers. Sailor Moon and Fruits Basket, both titles for girls, were 2 of the top selling graphic novels in the US. But I agree that who it's targeted at doesn't reflect whether or not it's good, those 2 titles sold well because they were good.

[Jed]

It's not people wanting books/stories/comics/whatever that cater to a particular audience, but rather perspectives. When you're talking about comics, it always centres around mainstream comics because, well, they're the mainstream, and mainstream comics creators are overwhelmingly straight white males. That colours the way things are created, because it's one perspective that is represented above all others. "Comics for girls" is a kind of self-defeating idea as it tends to a) try too hard (which reeks of "cool-dad" obviousness) and b) it doesn't come from the viewpoint of the people it's trying to appeal to. A cry for more diversity in comics creators, be it on a gender, race or sexuality basis is not necessarily a demand for a particular kind of book but is instead a statement that people want books created by people who have viewpoints shaped through experiences outside those shared by the vast majority of comics creators, especially in the mainstream.

[Angie]

The new Ms.Marvel is probably one of the best examples of a female lead book with diversity there is. It sells incredibly well and it's a genuinely amazing book. I don't even like many superhero books but they managed to pull me in with that one.