I\'m on the same page as Wei with the scores here. I\'d say even with the tracing Billeh did a better comic than Pelica, even if neither comic is particularly good. He might have copied but there\'s a lot more effort present in his comic, and it\'s up to the standard he\'s set so far on this site. Billeh just make sure in the future that if you DO take a pose, which is okay, make sure it\'s YOUR CHARACTER in the pose. Pelica, this totally wasn\'t up to what I\'ve come to expect from you. You usually do a damn site better than this, and this does make it absolutely clear that you rely way too much on colour.

Pelica:  Funnier than your last fight =). Wished it was colored though. Color beats black and white. Can\'t really say much since most was covered already. GREAT JOB!

Billeh: HOLY HELL!! You made some serious improvements and progress since your last fight! Coloring for cover page was sweet. Take back the sloppy comment from last battle.
Sorry for being a grammar snob but...\"its you\'re an idiot.\" when Aesimi holds back Beethoven ><

Pelica: You work seems to be getting sloppier and lazier. You need to be trying to improve on what was shown on your intro pages.

Billeh: after Pelica\'s request I will only comment on the comic itself, you should be focussing more on the drawing and creating instead of the bells and whistles like the tones and such....you obviously know how to use those.....but your drawing and designing is still lacking.

To be quite brutaly honest neither of these comics deserve anywhere near what people are giving them in the way of votes.....and if anyone has a problem with that statement and wishes to argue it do it somewhere other than here.

I would much rather see both of you work on shorter comics perhaps with longer deadlines.....thereby giving yourselves the time to really work on producing some quality pages....like I know you can both do

Tracing to learn is one thing but tracing it and claiming it as your own art (as you never mentioned your reference) is a serious offense. Mostly since you could get yourself sued if this was done as professional work for a company and also cause it shows us how badly you\'re trying to hide the face that you haven\'t been studying your anatomy very well.

All that aside, if you ever think about pulling this off again, take your own snapshot references with a camera and then try to understand the perspective behind it or the anatomy depending on the situation. If you learned the fundamental techniques of at correctly, you can easily stray away from the snapshots without losing the \"credibility\" of the picture. Oh and also, manga references arent the best around, unless you aim for style, get real life photos, models, whatever.

I\'m not quite sure how to react to all this.  I voted before Monday\'s post, giving bill a slight win based mostly on the art.  But honestly, I\'m not sure I\'d change it that much.  I keep looking at the examples posted, and while there are obvious copies between the poses, nothing looks to be actually traced as monday asserted. Or am I missing the right frames?  Are there greater story elements that have been ripped?  I mean, it\'s not a good thing, but they\'re poses.  Heck, even if he had traced the body forms he still filled in his own clothing and lighting, some of which probably took more effort in a single frame than a whole page of Pelica\'s comic.

Really, the writing that pretty much makes A&B into extras is more \"offensive\" to me in a battle than any of this pose controversy.

Well as long as there\'s a will to change, no harm no foul.

Yes, go with the backgrounds, Pelica! Backgroundless panels, especially when the background would aid mood or coherency, is one of the biggest art faults. If you must be brainwashed to do something, that\'s the thing to do.

As shocking as this is, I find it hard to get mad at billeh. x_x I used to trace anime pictures and stuff all the time and sometimes just changed faces/clothes to call them my own at first. Then I strayed away from that to make my own characters and stuff, and part of me feels like billeh might be at that stage O_o; And like it was said before, void is supposed to be about learning I guess. ._.; Also, if possible, I\'d appreciate it if you guys wouldn\'t comment any further about billeh\'s mistake; I\'m pretty sure the point\'s well across. I\'m grateful that you guys came to my defense, but there is a such thing as being a bit too harsh. :x


:0 Again, sorry about the quality ( I hate when last-minute projects jump out at me x_x). The speech bubbles I will try to work on for sure, since mine seem freaky x_x. Oh and I\'m in the process of brainwashing myself into drawing backgrounds, so I hope by next battle it\'ll be awesome background-y fun! n_n

Dude... it happens. And I well I know not EVERYONE does it... I know a LOT of people here are guilty of the same thing. Whether it got on Void is one thing.... but using other people\'s poses a little too closely happens a lot in early art careers... hell back in High School even I did it. (hell one time it was a REQUIRED art project, I kid you not. If Akira Toriyama saw it, he\'d sue my ass).

If you need help, next time ask for some help on the forum. There are tutorials there already, but if you need a specific one, post a thread either requesting a certain tutorial, or post what are you are working on and ask for some tips and crits on it in the unfinished stage.

hmm ~ ok, i\'m ashamed. and your opinions are most welcome [tutorials would be welcome as well though] let see- you have every right to be angry- but everyone gets better through mistakes - so i thank those who pointed it out. I won\'t be doing those again

What Dure says is absolutely right. But what I say is something I myself fully believe in as well- despite its discrepancies in methodology. I went through with this with doubts and pangs of disbelief. And if asked to do it again I will do it exactly the same and down to the letter- because I find it necessary for artistic growth and reconstruction.  However, I went in this with the belief that everyone can have a mind of their own. I am not asking you to come in en masse with 300 spears, and I dont want you to- I\'m just laying it straight to what is limited to MY domain of argument. What you do with it is completely up to you how to handle responsibly.

What Billeh needs to understand- is that he can not and must not build his confidence off of faulty methods. It is by all means not a brand it is my standard issue slap in the wrist and if he wants to challenge me on it; he\'s very welcome to do so.

Not a single name was called and everyone seemed way more disappointed than angry to me. Don\'t cut him any slack-- what he did was wrong. He should feel ashamed and he should learn from this and being \'nice\' about the situation isn\'t going to help. So, Billeh, don\'t do it again.

Pelica: I\'d love to see more finished stuff from you. D: Your scripts and battles are amusing but the quality\'s killin\' me here! I know you can do better so I hope I can see some real ace work from you next time, since this seemed rush. I enjoyed reading your comic, though, it was fun.

Kay, guys, cut Billeh some slack, out of the niceness in your hearts. Billeh made a rookie mistake, we\'ve all made mistakes. No one is saying that what Billeh did was ok, cuz it definetely isn\'t, but I just thought I\'d be good to stop the mob before they lit the torches. I\'m sure if he\'s read the comments, he\'s gotten the message by now. There\'s a big difference between copyng and reference, the Hellsing Poses, for example, I\'d consider referenced, whereas the air gear ones are definitely copied/traced. I trust he gets this, but intimidation, personal attacks and name calling will just scare him off away from Void, rather than pushing him to improve, which is the objective we all have here isn\'t it?

Anyhow, Billeh, mate, not cool, next time, if you need help with poses, let me know, send me an email or something and I\'ll help you out, give you some ideas. Or if you definetely have to use reference, look at it hard, then put the image away and draw, or you can even draw a stick figure in a new layer over the image, then erase the image and work from your stick figure. All in all, I would\'ve brough down your points in creativity/quality, had I known, but I still think that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. The fact that some poses were copied is a big blow to how much I liked this battle, but the dialogue, flow, and character/story development are all you, so I\'d still give you decent scores for that.

Thanks to Monday, I could vote accordingly

billeh: D, D-, C-

Not a good move man, you looked good in my book until this.

Pelica:

Awesome comic, loved the battle between Beethoven and Ghas. Work on getting some backgrounds in there, it\'ll make it look better. Nice job overall.

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/8239/scan0035fa5.jpg I believe this was the second hellsing picture we were looking for. I should have caught this sooner, much sooner. I need to pay attention and look for this much more often. I have a lot of the common copied comics.

Oh...my...god....

No wonder those poses were really good. I can\'t believe you found that Monday. I wouldn\'t have ever seen that. ( Don\'t read mangas )

I really wish I could take back my votes now. Nice job Pelica as always, you could\'ve put more backgrounds in, but the story was as good as ever. Hope to see your third win, and don\'t let a cheater beat you.

Hm, and I even thought to talk about Shinji\'s father before, now I can

Wow, I\'m offended and wish I could take my votes back. I don\'t read Air Gear but I read a plethora of other shonen manga so I\'ll be watching your battles very closely from now on. So if you want to rip off manga again it damned better be something obscure as fuck that I can\'t possibly track down because I will be cross referencing my library next time if I see anything suspicious.

Well, before seeing Monday\'s and Rabbit\'s helpful posts I was gonna say- The story in Pelica\'s is more interesting entertainment wise (funny as hell), but I would give points to billeh for building story.

But in light of recent info I guess all I can say is Damn, well that sucks, cause I liked the art... but if it is hacked (and it seems to be) I\'m gonna have to give all the points to Pelica. Sorry.

On that note that monday made, Me being a Hellsing fan caught your splash page aswell.
First thing I thought was wtf..Hellsing? And believe me I jump on anything kohta hirano like.
How does I copy pasta?! <_>
I found aesimi\'s pose atleast. http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3426/cawksbq5.jpg
Oh believe me I\'ll find Ghas\' pose.

More Airgear sources:
http://www.entervoid.com/display/1232/2225/3
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/MrMondays/DumpsDammit/Air_Gear_v03_089.png

Correction to that second link:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/MrMondays/DumpsDammit/FAKES.jpg

>> Billeh;

I cannot BELIEVE That I have been driven to say this to anyone in my time in VOID.  But I CANNOT get through your comic without thinking for a fact that half these poses were ripped off from Airgear and every anime ever:  http://www.entervoid.com/display/1232/2190/6
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/MrMondays/DumpsDammit/Air-Gear-05-169.png
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/MrMondays/DumpsDammit/Air-Gear-05-169.png

.  And that was only one page and I already found 2 fucking sources for it. I cannot and refuse to imagine what the rest of your comic was made with. Your backgrounds are definitely traced: http://www.entervoid.com/display/1232/2225/10
or at the very least show signs artificiality with the inking ; lines go whichever which way at very particular points and there is NO visual rhyme or reason why that is so ; UNLESS YOU WERE FOLLOWING THE LINES FROM SOMEWHERE.  This comic smells.
 There is a fine line between having your works inspired from those we look up to, and having them copied and regurgitated with almost no effort or follow through to even make it LOOK good. And you have crossed that line without a backwards glance for THREE FUCKING FIGHTS STRAIGHT. I\'ve BEEN WATCHING- And I\'ve let you slide, thinking that maybe you\'ll develop out of your hole. . .

But today you\'re fighting Pelica and she threw up something original and reads with merit and I am NOT about to sit idly to the fact that she\'s gonna lose to a HACK. You have heard my VOTE.  

Thats a Sentinal head from the X-Men in the Junk yard if I am not mistaken. Good Job Guy\'s

i kind of wanted to kill myself after viewing the first pages.

@angieness
Thnx. and.. shit. I haven\'t thought of that O__O;; I\'m always on a 1280x1024 so i didn\'t noticed. about the shifting tone on the end part - I always have this problem coz I have to keep in thought that I can only upload 10 pages. (and it\'s hard to repanel and adjust...) well that\'s something I have to learn more about.

@Silkworm
hmm.. there is one. he looks camouflage~ that\'s my favorite out of 4

@zsabreuser
thanks. uhm.. I have to \'level up\' my char development- coz I think I have to shed some light into my char\'s problem else he won\'t be understood.

I liked both stories!

Pelica: BUT your lines were very messy this time, and when I say messy I want to mean that they are either rushed, or lack finalization, even if I found them kinda clean, which is good (at least). I also missed the colors :x. Yet, I found your story the most interesting of both, and also the one more likely to be a fight, actually, instead of a chatter.

Billeh: wow! Your lines are really better than your last fight, you also took some time making backgrounds, and the effort really paid off! I enjoyed almost every panel of yours, artwise. The story itself though, as I pointed above, is about a lot of chatter and character development, which is cool, but you shouldn\'t forget it\'s a fight, yet.

I wish good luck to ya both!

AWSOME!!
  Beethoven friggin Rox!!! As for the battles, great work on both parts. Ghas\' battles continue to improve and me likey. Keep rockin\' Belleh!
  Pelica! Everything looked a bit sketchy this time around, but still really cool. Great character development too.
 Good times.

Pelica: I laughed a lot wwith your side =3
I wish you could have made soemthing that looked more finished... it looked pretty rushed for me =/

Ghas: man, you have improved! I liked your side a lot! the panneling was pretty nice and your drawing in general and your inks look way better then last time!

Pelica-man, I love your characters, someday I\'d love to fight them! I am however disappointed that you weren\'t able to clean everything up. It\'s okay to do black and white fights, just spend more time on your inking so everything comes out nice and smooth and professional looking. I would like to see you start using solid word bubbles as well, the transparent word bubbles thing doesn\'t work very well, you should never be afraid to cover up your lineart if you planned the panels properly. Your stuff is always extremely entertaining, just put more love and care into your inking so you don\'t have to depend on colors.

billeh-Damn, this was a very big step up for you, color me impressed. I\'m glad to see that some of the problems that plagued your first matches are now gone. It was very nice to see so many backgrounds compared to your earlier matches. Please keep practicing on those, you\'re getting there. Your inking is also looking smoother which is very nice. You do need to be careful with the size of your text sometimes though,I\'m on 1024x768 and the text was very hard to read in some areas. I do think that the shift in tone at the end could have happened a little more gradually, it seems a little odd that he\'d suddenly have flashbacks at the mention of the word family. I do like that it seems you\'re wanting to take your character in a specific direction now and it\'s nice that you have some foreshadowing to get us interested to see your next match.

There, sent. xD Wish I could have colored it like I planned to but oh well. xD

x_x Eeee, I have to finish scanning my pages, but I have to do it when I get home (Is at school!!)

Good luck to the both of ya, give us a great show

xD Yey!  This is going to be awesome! And you won\'t get your ass kicked XD; It\'s probably going to be the other way around!

Pelica gonna shank someone in the lunchrooom D:<

I\'m confused... Wasn\'t Ghas just in Anya\'s apartment... Now he\'s fighting a little girl and her puppy (was hoping for Anya Ghas fight)

woot m gonna get my ass kick ~wacha~ >.<